Revolver for self defense? - Page 2

Wrangler5 · October 30, 2012, 05:01 AM

+1 for MLeake's earlier suggestion to find a range with rentals and try any and all guns that might fit the intended purpose (size/weight/caliber, etc.) That's what I did when I was looking for a carry gun. As a result I ended up carrying small and medium Glocks daily, and have used 'em successfully in IDPA and USPSA competitions for years.

But I just LIKE to shoot revolvers more, and find I'm more accurate with 'em than with the Glocks, so last year switched to carrying a J frame daily (a 638 with Crimson Trace 405 laser grip.) It's actually a little lighter than the Glock 26 I usually carried (6 fewer rounds, of course), enough lighter that it can go in a pants or jacket pocket without a holster and not feel like it's pulling things down. I feel VERY confident when carrying a J frame revolver. And it's a real hoot to knock down steel plates at 25 yards with one - it will truly amaze your friends and mystify your enemies.

KMAX · October 30, 2012, 09:31 AM

What do you mean by self defense? Will she carry when she leaves home? How will she carry? A longer barrel (4") would be easier to shoot accurately. A 2" barrel would be easier to conceal but harder to shoot. A 3" bbl might be a good compromise. 357mag has a lot of power, but 38Sp is easier to shoot. There area lot of factors to consider.

There are a lot of options out there as far as manufacturers and models, new or used, calibers, size, weight, capacity, etc. Take your time and check out the options. Good luck and good shooting.

Pointshoot · October 30, 2012, 11:22 AM

Lots of good comments - especially on the need for someone to choose according to their own preferences.

I let a buddy of mine who is 6'4" and very athletic shoot one of my 1911s and a Glock 10mm. (He's not a 'gun nut', but does shoot). He's perfectly capable of shooting those pistols, but doesn't like them. He found the movement of the slide when firing 'distracting'. Says he prefers his Ruger Security Six 357 revolver.

You never know what someone will like or not.

Elmer · October 30, 2012, 11:29 AM

MLeake,

Hopefully you don't think I've said anything that disagrees with you. I've been teaching, (and preaching) similar concepts for 30+ years. Some men still try to pick guns for their significant others. Others have them choose, but don't facilitate the training they need. My comments were aimed at the title of the thread. "Revolver for self defense"? A lot of guys seem to think revolvers aren't appropriate for the task, and push guns on folks that aren't going to take the time to learn them. So my point was that someone who learns to safely handle and shoot a 5 shot J frame, is infinitely better off than those I see with more tactically acceptable guns that lack the skill to use them.

One friend's wife liked his Glock 21, and shot it at the range fairly well. So it sits under the seat of her car, in condition 3, because she's "not comfortable with one in the chamber", and it's too big for her to conceal. She shot my old model 60 and was able to make nice hits at 15 yards with it, and clearly felt more comfortable. But he wouldn't even entertain the idea of getting her one, because he's convinced that revolvers are "ancient technology".

kinggabby · October 30, 2012, 11:59 AM

Rent different types of guns and then let her decide on what she wants to carry since she will be the one carrying it.

MLeake · October 30, 2012, 05:22 PM

Elmer, we seem to be in violent agreement.

I'm a fan of whatever works.

For me, personally, I prefer autos in most cases, but at the extreme small end (for concealed carry when conditions make it a challenge) I like J frames quite well, and at the heavy end (outdoor settings with large 4-legged things in the area) I like my 6" 629.

In between, I typically have a 1911 or CZ variant.

FWIW, my wife likes my 442 well enough with the slightly oversized Altamont grip I added to it, but she did not like the stock boot grip. One thing to bear in mind when introducing shooters to different platforms is that "feel" and "reach" can sometimes be tailored via changes in stocks, grip panels, and or backstraps, depending on the gun.

Wrangler5 · October 30, 2012, 05:55 PM

For those with concerns about shooting accurately with short barrels, keep in mind that a laser grip will eliminate the accuracy differences between barrel lengths that are attributable to sight radius.

The inherent accuracy of a revolver is unrelated to barrel length - clamp any of 'em in a machine rest and they'll shoot pretty much the same size groups regardless of barrel length. The accuracy problems most of us have with snubbies result primarily from the short sight radius giving us difficulty in aligning the sights consistently from shot to shot.

A laser grip eliminates the sight alignment problem. It also allows fine tuning a fixed sight gun to the ammunition and grip technique of the shooter. As a bonus (the biggest advantage to a laser grip, IMHO, for a new revolver shooter) you get a terrific training aid for developing a solid hold while working on trigger manipulation. Most new shooters (and some old ones, too) are amazed to see what happens to the muzzle as the trigger is pulled and the hammer drops during normal double action firing. Put the ammunition in another room, load up with snap caps, and fire a thousand "shots" while you watch television and you can dramatically reduce the circle of deviation as you fire the gun, and will smooth out the action as well.

Obambulate · October 30, 2012, 07:14 PM

I guess it matters WHICH revolver caught her eye, and if that choice will fit her intended need.

One thing nobody has addressed is that Taurus and Charter have some very nice-looking and colorful revolvers that might catch a lady's eye but which may have quality control or reliability issues that could make for an unpleasant experience. It is best to stick with S&W or Ruger revolvers in the current market.

If it's for home defense, a medium or small steel framed revolver works best. For carry, medium size can work if she has a proper handbag designed for carry. For carry on her person, it's probably a J-frame or LCR.

MLeake · October 30, 2012, 07:20 PM

Wrangler5, I think you might have missed two crucial differences between J frame and larger revolver types:

1) The mainspring is different. It's a coil in the J frames, and a leaf spring in the bigger revolvers. This provides a different stacking and overall feel. Also, because of the lighter hammer and shorter throw, the tension has to be higher to achieve reliable ignition.

2) Coupled with a fairly stiff spring setup, the J frame is smaller - which creates two challenges:
a) It provides less leverage against the weight of the trigger, as the shorter grip frame and reach provide less moment arm for the hand; and
b) Less mass means less inertia and a higher trigger pull weight to gun weight ratio, so it's that much harder to keep the gun steady through a trigger pull.

That doesn't mean a J frame can't be shot accurately. It does mean, all else being equal, that the J takes more practice time and repetitions. I don't look at J frames as novice guns. OTOH, once one has mastered a J frame, particularly a hammerless type, one should be able to shoot other DA revolvers very well.

Wrangler5 · October 30, 2012, 07:46 PM

I agree (again) with MLeake that their size, weight and springs make J frames more difficult to shoot well. I am more (consistently) accurate with my K frames, even a 3" model 65, than with any of my 2"-barrel J frames. But my point was that a laser grip can make up for a lot of the difference, and can make dry fire practice more productive to boot.

I have the superthin 405 grip on my daily carry gun, and while I'm getting used to it over time, if I had it to do over again I'd try the larger 305. It has room for all fingers, and appears to be thicker, which should make it a bit more comfortable to actually shoot with. Perhaps not quite as concealable, although (1) that may not be as big an issue (SouthernMarine hasn't said whether concealed carry is part of the "defensive" plan) and in any event, (2) the fiancee may have concealment options (e.g. purse) which allow slightly larger grips.

If I were looking only for a house/car defensive revolver that I would not try to conceal on my person, I'd probably go with a short barrel K frame (6 shot) and put a laser grip on it. Best of all (revolver) worlds.

MLeake · October 30, 2012, 08:10 PM

I like lasers as training aids. I think they also have good tactical applications. However, I also think people who use lasers should practice equally with their iron sights.

For me, personally, the laser's best use was as a dry fire and point fire aid. Trigger control really makes a huge difference.

(Edit: Example - dry fire - put laser dot on a small object, such as a doorknob, and work on keeping it on that object throughout several DA pulls; Example - point fire - with laser not on, point gun where you think it should be on target, then turn laser on and see how close you actually are.)

Without good fundamentals (which one can develop through dry fire, and which the laser can help) the bullet doesn't get all that close to where the dot was at the beginning of the trigger pull.

Also, if you watch new shooters who try to use laser equipped guns, it becomes obvious which ones have not been dry firing: they get distracted by the laser's movement, and often start jerking the trigger and throwing shots all over the place.

Lasers are useful, but make sure the new shooter doesn't think they are some magical device.

October 30, 2012, 09:31 AM	#27
KMAX Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 771	Self defense? What do you mean by self defense? Will she carry when she leaves home? How will she carry? A longer barrel (4") would be easier to shoot accurately. A 2" barrel would be easier to conceal but harder to shoot. A 3" bbl might be a good compromise. 357mag has a lot of power, but 38Sp is easier to shoot. There area lot of factors to consider. There are a lot of options out there as far as manufacturers and models, new or used, calibers, size, weight, capacity, etc. Take your time and check out the options. Good luck and good shooting. __________________ This is my gun. There are many like her, but this one is mine. With Freedom Comes Responsibility!

October 30, 2012, 05:01 AM	#26
Wrangler5 Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 292	+1 for MLeake's earlier suggestion to find a range with rentals and try any and all guns that might fit the intended purpose (size/weight/caliber, etc.) That's what I did when I was looking for a carry gun. As a result I ended up carrying small and medium Glocks daily, and have used 'em successfully in IDPA and USPSA competitions for years. But I just LIKE to shoot revolvers more, and find I'm more accurate with 'em than with the Glocks, so last year switched to carrying a J frame daily (a 638 with Crimson Trace 405 laser grip.) It's actually a little lighter than the Glock 26 I usually carried (6 fewer rounds, of course), enough lighter that it can go in a pants or jacket pocket without a holster and not feel like it's pulling things down. I feel VERY confident when carrying a J frame revolver. And it's a real hoot to knock down steel plates at 25 yards with one - it will truly amaze your friends and mystify your enemies.

October 30, 2012, 11:22 AM	#28
Pointshoot Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 219	Lots of good comments - especially on the need for someone to choose according to their own preferences. I let a buddy of mine who is 6'4" and very athletic shoot one of my 1911s and a Glock 10mm. (He's not a 'gun nut', but does shoot). He's perfectly capable of shooting those pistols, but doesn't like them. He found the movement of the slide when firing 'distracting'. Says he prefers his Ruger Security Six 357 revolver. You never know what someone will like or not.

October 30, 2012, 11:29 AM	#29
Elmer Member Join Date: June 4, 2008 Posts: 64	MLeake, Hopefully you don't think I've said anything that disagrees with you. I've been teaching, (and preaching) similar concepts for 30+ years. Some men still try to pick guns for their significant others. Others have them choose, but don't facilitate the training they need. My comments were aimed at the title of the thread. "Revolver for self defense"? A lot of guys seem to think revolvers aren't appropriate for the task, and push guns on folks that aren't going to take the time to learn them. So my point was that someone who learns to safely handle and shoot a 5 shot J frame, is infinitely better off than those I see with more tactically acceptable guns that lack the skill to use them. One friend's wife liked his Glock 21, and shot it at the range fairly well. So it sits under the seat of her car, in condition 3, because she's "not comfortable with one in the chamber", and it's too big for her to conceal. She shot my old model 60 and was able to make nice hits at 15 yards with it, and clearly felt more comfortable. But he wouldn't even entertain the idea of getting her one, because he's convinced that revolvers are "ancient technology".

October 30, 2012, 11:59 AM	#30
kinggabby Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2011 Location: OKC Posts: 473	Rent different types of guns and then let her decide on what she wants to carry since she will be the one carrying it.

October 30, 2012, 05:22 PM	#31
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,650	Elmer, we seem to be in violent agreement. I'm a fan of whatever works. For me, personally, I prefer autos in most cases, but at the extreme small end (for concealed carry when conditions make it a challenge) I like J frames quite well, and at the heavy end (outdoor settings with large 4-legged things in the area) I like my 6" 629. In between, I typically have a 1911 or CZ variant. FWIW, my wife likes my 442 well enough with the slightly oversized Altamont grip I added to it, but she did not like the stock boot grip. One thing to bear in mind when introducing shooters to different platforms is that "feel" and "reach" can sometimes be tailored via changes in stocks, grip panels, and or backstraps, depending on the gun.

October 30, 2012, 05:55 PM	#32
Wrangler5 Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 292	For those with concerns about shooting accurately with short barrels, keep in mind that a laser grip will eliminate the accuracy differences between barrel lengths that are attributable to sight radius. The inherent accuracy of a revolver is unrelated to barrel length - clamp any of 'em in a machine rest and they'll shoot pretty much the same size groups regardless of barrel length. The accuracy problems most of us have with snubbies result primarily from the short sight radius giving us difficulty in aligning the sights consistently from shot to shot. A laser grip eliminates the sight alignment problem. It also allows fine tuning a fixed sight gun to the ammunition and grip technique of the shooter. As a bonus (the biggest advantage to a laser grip, IMHO, for a new revolver shooter) you get a terrific training aid for developing a solid hold while working on trigger manipulation. Most new shooters (and some old ones, too) are amazed to see what happens to the muzzle as the trigger is pulled and the hammer drops during normal double action firing. Put the ammunition in another room, load up with snap caps, and fire a thousand "shots" while you watch television and you can dramatically reduce the circle of deviation as you fire the gun, and will smooth out the action as well.

October 30, 2012, 07:14 PM	#33
Obambulate Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2011 Posts: 217	I guess it matters WHICH revolver caught her eye, and if that choice will fit her intended need. One thing nobody has addressed is that Taurus and Charter have some very nice-looking and colorful revolvers that might catch a lady's eye but which may have quality control or reliability issues that could make for an unpleasant experience. It is best to stick with S&W or Ruger revolvers in the current market. If it's for home defense, a medium or small steel framed revolver works best. For carry, medium size can work if she has a proper handbag designed for carry. For carry on her person, it's probably a J-frame or LCR.

October 30, 2012, 07:20 PM	#34
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,650	Wrangler5, I think you might have missed two crucial differences between J frame and larger revolver types: 1) The mainspring is different. It's a coil in the J frames, and a leaf spring in the bigger revolvers. This provides a different stacking and overall feel. Also, because of the lighter hammer and shorter throw, the tension has to be higher to achieve reliable ignition. 2) Coupled with a fairly stiff spring setup, the J frame is smaller - which creates two challenges: a) It provides less leverage against the weight of the trigger, as the shorter grip frame and reach provide less moment arm for the hand; and b) Less mass means less inertia and a higher trigger pull weight to gun weight ratio, so it's that much harder to keep the gun steady through a trigger pull. That doesn't mean a J frame can't be shot accurately. It does mean, all else being equal, that the J takes more practice time and repetitions. I don't look at J frames as novice guns. OTOH, once one has mastered a J frame, particularly a hammerless type, one should be able to shoot other DA revolvers very well.

October 30, 2012, 07:46 PM	#35
Wrangler5 Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 292	I agree (again) with MLeake that their size, weight and springs make J frames more difficult to shoot well. I am more (consistently) accurate with my K frames, even a 3" model 65, than with any of my 2"-barrel J frames. But my point was that a laser grip can make up for a lot of the difference, and can make dry fire practice more productive to boot. I have the superthin 405 grip on my daily carry gun, and while I'm getting used to it over time, if I had it to do over again I'd try the larger 305. It has room for all fingers, and appears to be thicker, which should make it a bit more comfortable to actually shoot with. Perhaps not quite as concealable, although (1) that may not be as big an issue (SouthernMarine hasn't said whether concealed carry is part of the "defensive" plan) and in any event, (2) the fiancee may have concealment options (e.g. purse) which allow slightly larger grips. If I were looking only for a house/car defensive revolver that I would not try to conceal on my person, I'd probably go with a short barrel K frame (6 shot) and put a laser grip on it. Best of all (revolver) worlds.

October 30, 2012, 08:10 PM	#36
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,650	I like lasers as training aids. I think they also have good tactical applications. However, I also think people who use lasers should practice equally with their iron sights. For me, personally, the laser's best use was as a dry fire and point fire aid. Trigger control really makes a huge difference. (Edit: Example - dry fire - put laser dot on a small object, such as a doorknob, and work on keeping it on that object throughout several DA pulls; Example - point fire - with laser not on, point gun where you think it should be on target, then turn laser on and see how close you actually are.) Without good fundamentals (which one can develop through dry fire, and which the laser can help) the bullet doesn't get all that close to where the dot was at the beginning of the trigger pull. Also, if you watch new shooters who try to use laser equipped guns, it becomes obvious which ones have not been dry firing: they get distracted by the laser's movement, and often start jerking the trigger and throwing shots all over the place. Lasers are useful, but make sure the new shooter doesn't think they are some magical device.