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Old September 28, 2012, 12:41 PM   #101
RickB
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Muzzle energy is "a" measure of power, but not "the" measure of power. The classic measures of "stopping power" - Hatcher, Taylor - use momentum as the most important component, and that favors the heavy bullet. Though the .357 started out with a pretty heavy bullet at very high velocity - 158grs @1500fps - it is now usually seen and promoted, as a self-defense round, in 125gr form. In order to get the sort of "power" that you get with full-power 10mm loads, you'd have to load a 125gr bullet to almost 2000fps.
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Old September 28, 2012, 12:55 PM   #102
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Full power 10mm loads out of factory guns are 700 to 750 ft lbs. Full power loads out of a factory .357 are 750 to 800 ft lbs. The .357 will have better sectional density with a 180 grain bullet as opposed to a 220 grain 10mm. The .357 is more gun than a 10mm, energy, sectional density, penetration. For a pistol cartridge, the 10mm is a fine choice.

Last edited by jmortimer; September 28, 2012 at 01:22 PM.
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Old September 28, 2012, 01:18 PM   #103
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RickB said:
Quote:
Muzzle energy is "a" measure of power, but not "the" measure of power. The classic measures of "stopping power" - Hatcher, Taylor - use momentum as the most important component, and that favors the heavy bullet.
That may well be the conventional wisdom, but I don't believe it's true. Momentum DOES tell you about the recoil, and also about how a bullet would feel to the target if it were immediately stopped by body armor. But it is energy that best tells you about the potential to do damage to tissue (assuming that all of the energy is dumped into the target), and THAT'S what matters most in stopping a threat.

My rule is to use a heavy-enough bullet to get the penetration you need, but don't go heavier than that. There are some underpowered rounds that need to use a very heavy bullet, with an FMJ round-nose and no expansion, in order to get the needed penetration. At the other extreme, very powerful rounds may over-penetrate with a heavy bullet, and you'll want to use a lighter, very fast bullet that will expand well.

There are also other factors that can be important. For example, I use a particular 158gr round in my 1-7/8" scandium/titanium .357 snubby, because it seems to give me a smaller short-barrel penalty that a 125gr round does ... most if not all of the powder seems to be burned before the bullet even leaves the case. There IS enough energy, though, to use a bullet that expands well and still gives adequate penetration. But if I were limited to .38Special, I'd probably use an FMJ round-nose. On the other hand, I have a 3" Model 60-15 .357 Jframe, and I prefer the 125gr round in that gun.

Sometimes your choice can also be influenced by differences in the muzzle energy for the various bullet weights. My above comments assumed that the muzzle energies of your various choices of bullet weights will be approximately the same. Sometimes that's true, but sometimes it's not. And some rounds are intended for rifles, and have slower-burning powders that won't work well for handguns.

Last edited by Mike_Fontenot; September 28, 2012 at 02:57 PM.
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Old September 28, 2012, 02:35 PM   #104
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Old September 28, 2012, 04:46 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by 454me View Post
Take a look at the specs for they original Been 10. They were powerful guns.
I'm sorry but I have to do this:

The gun was called the Bren 10. It made its debut in Miami Vice and was used by Sonny Crockett.
It fired the 200grn Norma load which was on par with the .41 magnum.
The FBI used the S&W 1076 with decock.
The round was too powerful for the Feds. In one instance, the FBI, responding to a bank robbery in progress, fired at the perp.
The round went in and out of the guy, through the plate glass window and lodged in the counter... right next to a female clerk!
The 1076 also had a malfunction in that once it was used to decock, the gun was frozen. One FBI Agent found that out the hard way!
If you do come across a 1076 for sale, make sure there is a tiny dimple by the decoking lever. That means that the gun was serviced by S&W to fix that issue.
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Old September 28, 2012, 06:33 PM   #106
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Quote:
chrisintexas

Why is 10 mm cartridge not popular?
I see very few posts about pistols with this cartridge[.]
Are there many drawbacks to using 10mm pistol?
To be concise:
Price (answer to questions 1 and 2)
recoil (answer to question 1)

To elaborate:
The 10mm Auto is my preferred cartridge for person self-defense. I have been carrying concealed for over 30 years. I have been carrying a 1911 after having gone to Gunsite in the late 1970s.

I met Bruce Nelson at Gunsite. I learned that he was a renowned leather maker. I ordered some of his leather goods to use for concealed carry. I have been using a belt and holster he made for about 30 years.

I originally carried a Government model in .45 ACP; however, I bought a Colt Delta Elite when I was able.

I have at least 15,000 full power rounds through the Delta Elite. I used it at Gunsite to go through the 499 course and earned an "E" certificate. I shot hand loaded ammo 155 gr. @1400 fps. I think I burned about 1200 rounds in five and one half days.
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:18 PM   #107
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I had made the comment that a full power 10mm was like having a 357 with 16 rounds. Someone didn't seem to like that comment so I went out and got my reloading book. Going to the max load with a 5 inch barrel 10mm with 13.9 grains of AA#7 and a 155 grain bullet you get 1400 fps. With the 357 and an 8 3/8 barrel and a 158 grain bullet and a max load of AA#9 and 14.3 grains of powder you get 1450 fps. With 2 3/8 inch more barrel you get 50 fps. So I stand by my comment that they are pretty close.
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:42 PM   #108
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If a thread needed to die or be closed at this point,it was this one. It is like a fire starting after you thought it was all clear. Once again will use Buffalo Bore:
180 JHP 1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
180 grain LFN 1375 fps 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

.357 more energy - 10mm less energy
Some of the 10mm proponents keep mentioning "short barrels" - not sure where this myth started. The 10mm is good and makes sense, but it is at best, close to the .357 in terms of energy, less, not more. You can go over 800 ft lbs with the .357 and you can't with the 10mm in factory guns.
P.S. Here are some more facts:
155 grain Barnes TAC-XP 1401 fps - Glock Mod 20, 4.6 inch barrel
158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

I like the 10mm, I just think we should keep it real. .357 more gun, better sectional density, better penetration. Now let's move on. Get a Rowland 460 and I'll show you how the .41 Mag is more gun. I like the Rowland 460 as well.

Last edited by jmortimer; October 28, 2012 at 08:53 PM.
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Old October 28, 2012, 11:40 PM   #109
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Quote:
180 JHP 1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
180 grain LFN 1375 fps 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun
.357 more energy - 10mm less energy
But not by much, very little difference really, what 64fps?

I'll take the additional rounds in the lighter, thinner, cheaper auto.
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Old October 29, 2012, 12:03 AM   #110
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"But not by much, very little difference really, what 64fps?"
I agree, but I was responding to comments claiming only longer barrel .357s could equal the 10mm, and that is just not the case. Apples to apples, the .357 is more gun, better SD and better penetration. I like the 10mm.
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Old October 29, 2012, 12:22 AM   #111
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It's the best kept secret
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Old October 29, 2012, 12:23 AM   #112
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10mm trajectory in my real world daily experience outperforms 357 hands down.
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Old October 29, 2012, 08:28 AM   #113
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Quote:
There are also other factors that can be important. For example, I use a particular 158gr round in my 1-7/8" scandium/titanium .357 snubby, because it seems to give me a smaller short-barrel penalty that a 125gr round does ... most if not all of the powder seems to be burned before the bullet even leaves the case.
I thought, fast burning powder for lighter bullets and slow burning powder for heavier bullets. Wouldn't the 125g be better suited for the snubbie since more powder should burn before bullet exit? I would think the 158g using slower burning powder would not exit the barrel before all of the powder is burned.
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Old October 29, 2012, 08:43 AM   #114
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I thought, fast burning powder for lighter bullets and slow burning powder for heavier bullets. Wouldn't the 125g be better suited for the snubbie since more powder should burn before bullet exit? I would think the 158g using slower burning powder would not exit the barrel before all of the powder is burned.
I think that slower powders are often used for heavier bullets, especially in rounds that are intended for hunting with long-barreled handguns and rifles. But for the Federal "Hi-Shok" round (C357E), I believe that they chose to use a very fast powder, and that most of the powder has burned before the bullet even leaves the case ... that not only gives me less short-barrel penalty in my snubby, but also gives me less flame-erosion in the titanium cylinder (S&W cautions against using bullets below 110 grains, in guns with titanium cylinders, for that reason). I've also never noticed any muzzle flash with that round, and I've found no un-burned powder residue during cleaning.

Last edited by Mike_Fontenot; October 29, 2012 at 10:23 AM.
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Old October 29, 2012, 09:57 AM   #115
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Ok......I think.
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Old October 29, 2012, 10:31 AM   #116
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One other observation: I think one reason that a slower powder is often used for heavier bullets is that IF the powder charge for a lighter bullet produces the maximum authorized pressure at some point in the bullet's travel down the barrel, then using a heavier bullet with that same charge will produce an over-pressure ... so in that case, either a slower powder, or less powder, must be used with the heavier bullet. But that problem really doesn't come up in the Federal Hi-Shok rounds, because they (for both 125gr and 158gr bullets) are well below the maximum allowable .357 loads ... so they can use a heavier bullet with the same powder charge, and the higher resulting max pressure still won't exceed the spec.
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