walthers to become cheaper

[745SW]

“I guess you never heard of the PPQ...”

“or haven't heard of the PPS?”


There probably are/were some request at the various shows but no entity at the show is able to provide a hard holster. Once in a while there’s a request for a hard holster for the HK P7 but I don’t believe any mass production maker makes one.

Overall, my perspective, the firearm related industry is doing fair although perhaps compared to most other parts of the economy its probably good/viable. Most vendors/sellers at the shows say revenue is down about 1/3 that of the year 2000. Many brick-and-mortar retailers of firearms have long disappeared from the state as well as shooting ranges.

I do find some correlation of product availability between Turner’s and the gun shows. For those not in the know Turner’s is said to be the highest volume handgun seller in the state of California. Yet they appear to have changed hands twice within the last many years and are/have been in debt, double digit millions. I believe they are privately held so this information wasn’t provided by them directly.

The Walther P22 is frequently shown in Turner’s flyer that is mailed, not emailed but real physical mail. No other Walther products have ever appeared in the flyers to the best of my knowledge, I have been receiving the flyers for well over a decade, perhaps close to two decades. The only exception was the P5 and that was most likely because of a special buy.

In recent times two versions of HK’s have appeared in the flyer, P2000 and USP. The most frequent brands in the flyer are Glock, Kimber, Springfield, S&W, Ruger, Sig, Beretta, CZ and Taurus. The brand offerings differ from flyer to flyer probably because of the limitations of the media, there’s only so much that can be fitted within a flyer of about 40 pages.

And more correlation in the marketplace I would term the “Apple effect”. As we all know Apple computer is doing mighty well today because they cater to the affluent/well-to-do consumer. That is perhaps the reason why Ruger and S&W are both in the 1911 and M4 carbine market today compared to the distant past.

[sigarms228]

I'll let you in on a secret...

I cheat. Seriously though I do my own trigger job. I replace the hammer spring with a 12 lb one from Wolff instead of the 14 lb stock. Brings the DA pull down a bit, but it's the same weight as HKs competition springs which also work but are much more $, so I have never had a light strike in a thousand rounds. I also replace the firing pin block spring with the light version, also available on HKparts. This takes out a lot of the stacking people feel at the end of the HK Double Action pull. Replacing the hammer spring is only as hard as taking off the backstrap, and the firing pin block spring involves me moving out one roll pin. Literally takes me minutes. Factory rated parts that make it so much sweeter it's a crime. Anyway, food for thought.

Thanks for the info!

[TunnelRat]

Overall, my perspective, the firearm related industry is doing fair although perhaps compared to most other parts of the economy its probably good/viable. Most vendors/sellers at the shows say revenue is down about 1/3 that of the year 2000. Many brick-and-mortar retailers of firearms have long disappeared from the state as well as shooting ranges.

While that may be true in your state, the exact opposite is true in mine. I've seen numerous FFL dealers open up, from full fledged brick and mortar stores to home run jobs. The biggest LGS near me has seen record numbers of sales. On a Friday/Saturday you'd swear the damn place was a bar with the number of people there. To my knowledge this is far more the norm than what you're describing. To me applying what is happening in one of the more restrictive gun states to the whole country is a bit misleading.

The Walther P22 is frequently shown in Turner’s flyer that is mailed, not emailed but real physical mail. No other Walther products have ever appeared in the flyers to the best of my knowledge, I have been receiving the flyers for well over a decade, perhaps close to two decades.

Again, making a blanket statement about a company's popularity because of the flyer of one store? I also think you can't ignore online sales anymore, they are just too prevalent and I think a major part of Walther's recent surge with the PPQ. If the stores don't have it the people are going online and buying there.

[lamarw]

With the new James Bond Actor resembling President Putin of Rusia, the price should go down.

[Johannes_Paulsen]

“I guess you never heard of the PPQ...”

“or haven't heard of the PPS?”

Or the PPK for that matter....there's going to be a 2-hour long commercial for that one in theaters next month.

[wild cat mccane]

so doesn't sound like anyone knows...

[zxcvbob]

Since Walther wont be paying S&W for importing...will Walther products drop in price?

[745SW]

“While that may be true in your state, the exact opposite is true in mine. I've seen numerous FFL dealers open up, from full fledged brick and mortar stores to home run jobs. The biggest LGS near me has seen record numbers of sales. On a Friday/Saturday you'd swear the damn place was a bar with the number of people there. To my knowledge this is far more the norm than what you're describing. To me applying what is happening in one of the more restrictive gun states to the whole country is a bit misleading.”

“Again, making a blanket statement about a company's popularity because of the flyer of one store? I also think you can't ignore online sales anymore, they are just too prevalent and I think a major part of Walther's recent surge with the PPQ. If the stores don't have it the people are going online and buying there.”


It would be nice if you gave some specifics. As far as I know you could be located in Guam.

I beg to differ. Your observations are unusual because it does not correlate with federal data such as the ATF. FFL licensees have lessened dramatically over the past two decades in the entire country. The peak was about 251K in the year 1994. 2010 is 119K. Dealer FFL has gone from a high of about 248K in 1992 to 48K in 2010.

What your most likely seeing is the dramatic increase in FFL collector licensee growth, about 57K for the year 2010 from a low of 5.2K in 1975. Las Vegas, I believe, is a major location for shows that cater to collectors. I hardly think the current line of polymer Walther’s would be considered collectable.

The shows do move product. It’s not usual for a firearms dealer to sell $50K or more during a two-day show. The profit margin is razor thin at about 10-15%. Most retail, I believe, cannot survive on a profit margin anywhere near 10%.

California does have much restriction yet it even surpasses Texas when it comes to National Firearms Act Registered Weapons, a special permit I believe. This permit covers machineguns, silencers, short barreled rifles and shotguns, and other stuff that wouldn’t normally considered legal in the state. For 2010 Texas total 224K, California total 243K.

Pistols manufactured are higher than the previous peak in 1993 of 2.1M. 2011 was 2.5M. Yet, I would think, the dollar amount per unit is much lower today than in the distant past.

[TunnelRat]

As far as I know you could be located in Guam.

And I like to keep it that way. You're free to broadcast what state you're from, I choose not to. All I can say is the situation as you describe it is not the case in my state. And the following articles, seem to suggest what I'm seeing is not an aberration:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49473540.../#.UIMUW4ad-aw

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-a-pistol?lite

[Atbat82]

745SW,

Keep in mind that California also has 11million more people than Texas. Probably accounts for part of the reason why they had more Class III stamps.

[carguychris]

Don't forget that CA has Hollywood prop departments that need all those FA weapons.

[sigcurious]

BTW, neither the PPS or PPQ are rostered in California, so if 745SW is using Turner's as a gauge only a small slice is being seen. Turner's doesn't carry anything off roster and they're only in southern California.

However FFLs putting money into making single shot exemption kits for guns is largely based on popularity/demand, and they exist for PPQs.


I wish walthers would become cheaper but I think Peetza nailed it. They already know what people will pay for their products, no reason to drop the prices even if it costs them less to do business in the US.

[745SW]

I believe Walther presents in the marketplace will not grow, unless they throw money at it, and their relationship with S&W apparently did not grow enough. In a figurative way, Walther was kicked out of their apartment.

Walther is a “…shrinking piece of business”

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...-wesson-split/


Over the years I see gun show vendors have to grow or die. A high percentage of show vendors cover multiple states and for many products they are sourced directly, no middleman. This means for given brand it needs to move in quantity. Other than Blackhawk that most likely has the most extensive line of hard holsters, most other brands do not make a holster for Walther.

I really like the looks and features of the original P99 AS but never got one because I’d rather get a used P5. A patron at a show a few years back wanted to sell his P99 which gave me the opportunity to handle and dry-fire, he wanted $500. To me a polymer Browning titling barrel pistol is not a true Walther but a variant of the Glock.

While the older P99 looked nice the PPQ makes Glock’s look handsome.

From what I’ve seen of makers of high-end limited distribution products that transitioned to mass-produced mainstream products the success rate isn’t high. One of my hobbies of the past was hi-fi audio, the market today is comparatively dead, and as a consumer saw the industry rise and fall. No one in the industry would admit the sky was falling yet many a consumer knew better. Retail storefront closers, magazine publications consolidating or being eliminated and maker product lines shrinkages, it was obvious but the pros kept their straight faces. That’s business I guess.

Usually the high-end maker loses too much of their product distinction in the process of change. That change for Walther appears to have started with the P88.

[balance]

I believe Walther presents in the marketplace will not grow, unless they throw money at it, and their relationship with S&W apparently did not grow enough. In a figurative way, Walther was kicked out of their apartment.

Walther is a “…shrinking piece of business”

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...-wesson-split/

I don't believe this split is anything other than the ending of a ten-year agreement/contract between S&W and Walther. They got together in 2002, and exactly ten years later, this happens.

Walther's popularity is growing in the US, mostly due to their newer polymer pistols. Anyone at S&W that thinks that Walther is "a shrinking piece of business", probably doesn't realize that the P99 and PPQ have been sold out at most vendors for a matter of months now. They are selling faster than they can make them and ship them over here.

While the older P99 looked nice the PPQ makes Glock’s look handsome.

I used to think the PPQ was ugly. I don't know when it happened, but after owning it for about a year, I think it looks pretty good now.

The beauty of the PPQ, comes from looking at the results of the targets you are shooting at, rather than the pistol.

From what I’ve seen of makers of high-end limited distribution products that transitioned to mass-produced mainstream products the success rate isn’t high. One of my hobbies of the past was hi-fi audio, the market today is comparatively dead, and as a consumer saw the industry rise and fall. No one in the industry would admit the sky was falling yet many a consumer knew better. Retail storefront closers, magazine publications consolidating or being eliminated and maker product lines shrinkages, it was obvious but the pros kept their straight faces. That’s business I guess.

Usually the high-end maker loses too much of their product distinction in the process of change. That change for Walther appears to have started with the P88.

Walther's defensive pistols were always designed to be mass-produced and win agency contracts. I wouldn't consider either the PP (1929), P-38 (1938), or P-5 (1977) as being high end pistols.

As for the P88, it was Walther's first try at a "wonder-nine" double stack 9mm. They couldn't use the P-38 recoil spring and locking system design (like Walther did on all of the 9mm pistols that were released between the P-38 and P-88), since a double stack mag, and a recoil spring on either side of the magwell would have resulted in a very wide pistol. It had to be different.

[TunnelRat]

In a figurative way, Walther was kicked out of their apartment.

As said from S&W? So that's one side of the story that's bound to be a bit biased. Of course they want to assure their shareholders that this ending agreement won't significantly impact their sales. It's a company after all.

most other brands do not make a holster for Walther.

Yet almost all custom holster makers made sure to have an option for the PPQ within a month of it being out, odd.

While the older P99 looked nice the PPQ makes Glock’s look handsome.

That's a matter of opinion. Some find function attractive. Its looks surely haven't stopped it from selling out in most of the LGSes around me. As soon as they come in stock out they go again.

Again, just because Walthers aren't immensely popular in your state, a state which doesn't allow the PPQ yet (Walther's newest product and very popular), doesn't somehow mean the brand is dying. I can barely find a CZ in any store in my state. That must mean they're dead right? But they have a cult like following and are very popular elsewhere.

[balance]

As said from S&W? So that's one side of the story that's bound to be a bit biased. Of course they want to assure their shareholders that this ending agreement won't significantly impact their sales. It's a company after all.

What's funny is that S&W didn't use this opportunity to stop production of the "Walther" PP-series pistols that they have been manufacturing under license from Walther. With Walther sales being "a shrinking piece of business", one would think that S&W would stop production of a line of pistols that were not selling very well or were not making a profit for S&W.

[Mystro]

PPQ ugly?? I think not.


Holding the PPQ up next to all my Glocks, the Glocks look down right outdated.

[745SW]

The sales pitch I’m hearing of Walther is quality. That implies others like Glock, Sig, Ruger, S&W, HK and others are comparatively lacking. Somehow I find that hard to swallow.

As for Walther selling more than they can make that line is too common. This can be said of ammo makers, Sig’s, Ruger’s and others. No one knows how long this firearm bubble/fad will last consequently the makers simply maximize their current capacity. But of course if Walther really felt they would grow dramatically then capacity would have already existed to meet demand.

Lack of product availability I find that to be a resellers dilemma. Many things are seasonal or follow a yearly or other pattern, in other words its predictable yet most merchants won’t stock up because of costs or the fear of getting stuck with dead inventory. So the makers think in like kind and the whole process become a feedback loop. I guess it’s related to the times because there was a time having dead inventory wasn’t much of an issue. Just dump the thing.

I find S&W decision to cut some aspects of the Walther relationship at this time to be a sound choice. S&W only has so much manufacturing capacity and their success currently is good. They can better utilize the capacity. I think this small part from the link I gave previously speaks for itself. Besides my Sony PSP won’t display this part of the article for some unknown reason and perhaps some others may have the same issue.

““So, we have a piece of business [Walther]…which…is smaller than the revenue generated by our Bodyguard 380, a single SKU…” said Debney.

If the entire line of Walther guns is generating less revenue than a single product in the Smith & Wesson line, and at a lower margin, cutting loose from the German
company would appear to be a sound financial decision.”

The Wii (video gaming console) fad lasted for several years and it’s believed because it hit the senior citizen demographic. Game disc sales have been low per console sold compared to the other two consoles on the market. Here to I don’t believe this was predictable.

Out sourcing isn’t as simple or easy as it sounds when it comes to parts or assemblies especially for a small maker. The small guy simply doesn’t have the pull or leverage to get the buys or quality. That’s why such an entity tends to have things done in-house. Makers like Rolex (watches) do much of their processing in-house giving the product an image of exclusiveness yet what isn’t said is they don’t have much choice.

As for Walther having S&W continue to manufacture and distribute the PPK’s I don’t believe Walther has a choice. It would be very costly, if probable at all, for Walther to have another entity take S&W’s place that has the capacity, know-how and distribution channels as S&W in the US. And it’s not as simple as giving another entity the documents related to manufacture. Documentation has been falling since the 90’s because of costs. Surely the computer makes things easier but the lack of staff is the norm. In other words not everything is documented and for the most part is discouraged because of costs. Sure there are times because of an event things change for the better for a time but eventually falls back to the previous norm.

In recent times got 10 OEM Glock 19 mags at $20 each OTD (out the door). That’s a price point that is likely unmatched when it comes to other brand pistols. Accessories and parts availability is among the best of any brand. Getting folks to change over will be a daunting task I believe.

Difference in CS (customer service) between Walther and S&W appears to be polar opposites. Regardless of the stated warranty some makers are better than others. Glock has been known to replace the polymer frame at moderate cost or for free. S&W having to handle Walther’s CS doesn’t appear to reflect well for S&W.

How well a maker/entity handles CS and how it ultimately affects sells is probably unknown. I would think because of Yelp and the various forums it would have some affect compared to yesteryear.

[TunnelRat]

^. Lol, wow dude . Okay I give. You obviously have a set against Walther for some reason or you are just trolling to beat the band. Heck I don't even like them that much so idk why I am arguing with you. Best of luck.

[Mystro]

I actually own all and several guns from the brands in question and I can say Walthers quality probably is a cut above especially for what Walthers is charging for their guns. The world is a big market place and for what I can see about Walthers demand in Europe, Walthers doesnt need S&W. Walthers will do just fine. They are one of the oldest and well established gun makers in the world.

The sales pitch I’m hearing of Walther is quality. That implies others like Glock, Sig, Ruger, S&W, HK and others are comparatively lacking. Somehow I find that hard to swallow.

[Fishbed77]

The sales pitch I’m hearing of Walther is quality. That implies others like Glock, Sig, Ruger, S&W, HK and others are comparatively lacking. Somehow I find that hard to swallow.

Hold a Walther PPQ or P99AS side-by-side with a Glock. The difference in quality is immediately evident.

Both are supremely reliable and durable firearms, but the fit & finish, ergonomics, and trigger feel of the Walther models are a step above.

[balance]

The sales pitch I’m hearing of Walther is quality. That implies others like Glock, Sig, Ruger, S&W, HK and others are comparatively lacking. Somehow I find that hard to swallow.

I think my BMW is a good quality car. This isn't taking anything away from Ferrari.

As for Walther selling more than they can make that line is too common.

It was in response to the line where the S&W rep stated that Walther was a shrinking piece of business.

But of course if Walther really felt they would grow dramatically then capacity would have already existed to meet demand.

Walther is setting up to become their own importer in the US at the beginning of next year. What makes you (or anyone) so sure that it was S&W, who decided to break ties with Walther?

I find S&W decision to cut some aspects of the Walther relationship at this time to be a sound choice. S&W only has so much manufacturing capacity and their success currently is good. They can better utilize the capacity.

The only manufacturing capacity that S&W has, that is being used to produce Walther pistols, is being used to produce Walther PPK/S models under license from Walther. This is the only "Walther" that S&W makes. The P99, PPS, and PPQ are all made by Walther in Germany. I haven't heard anything about the S&W produced PP-series pistols being scheduled for discontinuation, so obviously S&W still believes they are worth producing. S&W is in business to make money.

I think this small part from the link I gave previously speaks for itself. Besides my Sony PSP won’t display this part of the article for some unknown reason and perhaps some others may have the same issue.

““So, we have a piece of business [Walther]…which…is smaller than the revenue generated by our Bodyguard 380, a single SKU…” said Debney.

If the entire line of Walther guns is generating less revenue than a single product in the Smith & Wesson line, and at a lower margin, cutting loose from the German
company would appear to be a sound financial decision.”

Which Walther pistols are they talking about? There is no way more Bodyguard .380 pistols are being sold than the entire line of Walther pistols.

If they are talking only about the PP-series pistols (that they produce), then this may be possible. However it is unsurprising to me that a newly designed modern polymer carry pistol is selling better than a heavy all steel carry pistol designed over 83 years ago.

That being said, the PP-series pistols have not been scheduled for discontinuation as far as I know, so this statement by S&W makes no sense to me.

As for Walther having S&W continue to manufacture and distribute the PPK’s I don’t believe Walther has a choice. It would be very costly, if probable at all, for Walther to have another entity take S&W’s place that has the capacity, know-how and distribution channels as S&W in the US.

S&W has a choice, and they continue to produce the PP-series pistols, even after this break-up.

Why?

Difference in CS (customer service) between Walther and S&W appears to be polar opposites. Regardless of the stated warranty some makers are better than others. Glock has been known to replace the polymer frame at moderate cost or for free. S&W having to handle Walther’s CS doesn’t appear to reflect well for S&W.

S&W provided excellent service for Walther owners for a little over 9 of the ten years they were together. Just recently, with the news of the split, did S&W service for Walther owners seem to diminish. They don't seem to care as much about Walther owners as they used to.

[dayman]

Maybe S&W gets less income from importing Walther than they do from manufacturing the BG380, but I would assume that would be because Walther is getting the lions share of the money generated from Walther sales. It doesn't mean that Walthers are not selling - just that S&W isn't making as much money on them as they'd like.
When I got mine I had to call around all over the state until I found a place that had one in stock. They'd gotten 4 in the AM, and only had the one left when I went in to pick mine up.
Personally I would have probably paid more for it than I did, and felt like I was getting a fantastic deal paying $75 or so under list. So, I doubt Walther will lower their prices any - it's already pretty much the same price as a Glock, with all the modern bells and whistles of an HK.

[balance]

Maybe S&W gets less income from importing Walther than they do from manufacturing the BG380, but I would assume that would be because Walther is getting the lions share of the money generated from Walther sales. It doesn't mean that Walthers are not selling - just that S&W isn't making as much money on them as they'd like.

This would make more sense, but...

If they are talking about the Walther pistols that they import (P99, PPS, PPQ), then the line about how Walther is a "shrinking piece of business" doesn't go along with reality. The PPQ and PPS are more than likely selling at a faster rate than the P99 ever did within the past 10 years that S&W has been importing them. If anything, Walther sales have increased within the past year after the introduction of the PPQ.

If they are talking about the Walther pistols that they produce (PP-series pistols) then it would make sense for them to discontinue the line if "the entire line of Walther guns is generating less revenue than a single product in the Smith & Wesson line, and at a lower margin".

These statements from S&W don't make sense, IMO.

[carguychris]

The only manufacturing capacity that S&W has, that is being used to produce Walther pistols, is being used to produce Walther PPK/S models under license from Walther. This is the only "Walther" that S&W makes.

S&W also makes the PPK.

S&W has a choice, and they continue to produce the PP-series pistols, even after this break-up... Why?

The 1968 GCA makes it illegal to import the PPK into the USA because it famously fails the points test by a single point. I suspect that the USA is far and away the biggest market for the PPK and PPK/S because AFAIK the USA is the only prosperous Western country where CCW by civilians is legal and widespread, and where pistols like the PPK can be readily purchased. If this is correct, it would make little sense to make the PPK in the USA and the PPK/S in Europe, where labor costs are roughly comparable. Why maintain two production lines when there only needs to be one?

IOW the PP-series is like the BMW X5; it's a product that mostly Americans buy, so it makes sense to build it in America.