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Old October 21, 2012, 07:36 PM   #1
cdmckane
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TC 209 Wildcat

While cleaning out my late Aunt's place (she was a hoarder), my dad found a TC 209 Wildcat that's never been fired. He doesn't shoot so he gave it to me. It appears to be an entry level BP, and I've been semi interested in BPs so I could extend my hunting season.

What are some tips to get started BP shooting as someone who is coming from rifles/slug guns?

I've got a box of 777 powder, a box of CCI 209 primers, and a box of TC Shock Wave 250 grain sabots. The manual says I should use bore butter when loading balls with patches but doesn't say weather or not I need to with sabots.

Any advice is welcomed. Thanks.

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Old October 21, 2012, 11:56 PM   #2
arcticap
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There's no need to use Bore Butter with sabots since the barrel should be clean and dry.
The breech plug threads should be lubed with either breech plug grease, an anti-seize grease or even Bore Butter if nothing else is available so that it doesn't get stuck from the gas fouling that enters the threads.
The bore may need to be swabbed frequently to prevent loading difficulty, either between each shot or after every 2-3 shots.
Sometimes the 777 pellets can cause a hard crusty residue to form that can interfere with the sabot being properly seated on top of the powder when rammed. Be sure to note the depth of the loaded sabot by using the ramrod which can be marked for reference.
Make sure to clean the rifle thoroughly after each shooting session.
TC's T17 Solvent is formulated to make cleaning 777 powder residue easier, especially in the field.
Good luck and let us know how it shoots.

http://www.amazon.com/T17-Bore-Solve...9&keywords=T17

http://www.cabelas.com/patches-solve...ning-kit.shtml

Here's a PDF of the Wildcat owner's manual:

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...der_Manual.pdf

Last edited by arcticap; October 22, 2012 at 02:54 PM.
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Old October 22, 2012, 10:40 AM   #3
cdmckane
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Got it out this morning and fired 8 rounds. One each at 20,25,30,35,40,50,75,&100 yds. Each shot was in the 7ring with no adjustment to the iron sights. I've never had a gun that good out of the box!

It was getting tough to load so I stopped to clean it before I start again at 100 tomorrow and get her dialed in for deer season. I can't believe how dirty the breech plug is after only 8 rounds. I guess this isn't the weapon I'm gonna blast through a box of ammo with at the range.

I also can't believe how much more this thing kicks compared to my 220F or my .30-06.

Thanks for the advice. I'm sure I'll be back for more as I put more lead downrange with this thing.

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Old October 22, 2012, 11:44 AM   #4
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Quote:
interested in BPs so I could extend my hunting season.
No doubt about that. It sure would.

Quote:
What are some tips to get started BP shooting
As most here on this FLF thread location are indeed veterans at B/P. I'm sure if you stick around here you will indeed learn a few ("tips") that do apply to your situation cdmckane. A couple things to remember. Be patient & observant. After all it is a skill.

My tip; The very first thing I would do since this is a pre-owned rifle you were given. Make sure it isn't already loaded or has a projectile stuck someplace in its barrel length. If the barrel is clear. Then mark your Ram- rod for total distance to its breech bottom. Done easily and neatly in a simple but effective way using an indelible fine-tipped pen as arcticap suggested.

Quote:
bore butter when loading balls with patches but doesn't say weather or not I need to with sabots.
arcticap: He answered that one for you and offered more Links besides.

Post Script: Welcome to the form Sir.

Oops I guess I'm a bit late with this one_
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Old October 22, 2012, 12:15 PM   #5
shortwave
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You stated your shooting the 250grn. Shock Wave bullet with 777 powder.

How many grns. of 777 powder?

Too, Hornady makes the Shock Waves for TC. TC puts their name on them and marks them up so you can save some $'s by buying the Hornady SST's. They are cheaper.
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Old October 22, 2012, 12:27 PM   #6
cdmckane
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Shooting 100gr (2pellets) of 777. I had heard that hornadys were a bit cheaper but these TCs were in the box with the Wildcat. I went to a few gun shops and looked online and I found the TCs to be cheaper for me. It's good to know that they're just rebranded Hornadys bc I love their stuff. It's all I put through my 220F.

As far as pre owned, yes it was but it was still in original unopened box.

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Old October 22, 2012, 10:37 PM   #7
shortwave
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Shooting 100gr (2pellets) of 777.
Good deal. The 777 pellets are supposed to be 50grn. each.

Just thought I'd mention this in case you didn't know:

If you switch to loose 777 powder and want to shoot the equivalent of your '2 pellet 100grns' , you'll have to reduce the loose 777 when you measure it out by 15%(or 85grns).
In other words loose 777 powder is 15% more potent then most other powders soooo... 2 50grn. pellets of 777 is equal to 85grns. 777 loose powder.
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Old October 23, 2012, 05:53 AM   #8
mykeal
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If you switch to loose 777 powder and want to shoot the equivalent of your '2 pellet 100grns' , you'll have to reduce the loose 777 when you measure it out by 15%(or 85grns).
In other words loose 777 powder is 15% more potent then most other powders soooo... 2 50grn. pellets of 777 is equal to 85grns. 777 loose powder.
Huh?
Ah, no, I don't think so.
Two 50 grain pellets of 777 is 100 grains of 777, period, loose or otherwise.
85 grains/volume of 777 is, approximately, equal to 100 grains/volume of real black powder or Pyrodex.
100 grains/volume of 777, loose or in pellet form (two 50 grain pellets), is, approximately, equal to 115 grains of real black powder or Pyrodex.
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Old October 23, 2012, 08:27 AM   #9
shortwave
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Huh?
Ah, no, I don't think so.
Two 50 grain pellets of 777 is 100 grains of 777, period, loose or otherwise.
85 grains/volume of 777 is, approximately, equal to 100 grains/volume of real black powder or Pyrodex.
100 grains/volume of 777, loose or in pellet form (two 50 grain pellets), is, approximately, equal to 115 grains of real black powder or Pyrodex.
You are correct mykeal.

Guess I should research my info. a bit better before giving advice eh?

I haven't shot pellets in some 20yrs.(and that was a short-lived experience) and for some reason thought the 777 pellets were equal to Pyrodex pellets. Just not the loose.

Thanks for teaching me something today. Been wrong all these years.



Again, Thanks for the correction.

Last edited by shortwave; October 23, 2012 at 10:50 AM.
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Old October 23, 2012, 11:19 AM   #10
arcticap
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777 Pellets are equal to loose black powder

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykeal
Huh?
Ah, no, I don't think so.
Two 50 grain pellets of 777 is 100 grains of 777, period, loose or otherwise.
85 grains/volume of 777 is, approximately, equal to 100 grains/volume of real black powder or Pyrodex.
100 grains/volume of 777, loose or in pellet form (two 50 grain pellets), is, approximately, equal to 115 grains of real black powder or Pyrodex.
Actually the statement above is incorrect.
I just got off the phone with Mike at Hodgdon's muzzle loading department.
He was quite clear that the .50/50 777 pellets are designed to be equivalent to 50 grains of black powder and not 50 grains of loose 777.
What prompted me to call was that #1: I thought that someone had weighed their 777 pellets and reported that they were lighter in weight than loose 777 powder.
#2: The Hodgdon website ambiguously states that the .50/50 777 pellets are equivalent to 100 grains of loose powder, but doesn't state which loose powder. Thus I wanted it to be clarified.

Mike said that he gets asked the question all of the time and that all of their pellets are made to be equivalent to black powder loads and not the Hodgdon loose powders.
This especially makes sense because Hodgdon is now making .50/60 777 pellets that are labeled as Magnum pellets which could overload some guns.
If .50/50 pellets were equivalent to 115 grains of loose black powder, that would exceed the factory recommended 100 grain maximum load for many older conventional muzzle loaders.
And also, if three of those 777 pellets were loaded and they equaled 150 grains of loose 777, that would be exceeding the factory recommended load for 150 grain maximum load magnum muzzle loaders by the equivalent of 22.5 grains of black powder (15%).
He said that it's the same for their White Hots Pellets too.
And he also mentioned the 15% greater strength of 777 as being the reason why the pellets are made to be BP equivalent.
Below is Hodgdon's ambiguous written statement regarding the meaning of 100 grain equivalent if loading two 777 .50/50 pellets:

Quote:

Triple SevenĀ® Muzzleloading Pellets


50 Caliber - 50 Grain Pellets

Designed for use in 50 caliber in-line rifles. A single Pellet may be used for target or small game and two 50/50 Pellets may be used to create the 100 gr. equivalent for big game. Packed 100 Pellets to the box or 24 Pellets to the card. Easy clean-up, just like Triple Seven granular powder. Designed for use with 209 shotshelll primers only.

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven-pellets.html

Last edited by arcticap; October 24, 2012 at 10:43 AM.
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Old October 23, 2012, 11:53 AM   #11
shortwave
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If I remember correctly(which I may not...minds not what it used to be ), didn't we go through this same topic a few years ago here on TFL?

Seems I vaguely remember a thread discussing the same thing and it was determined then the 777 pellets were not the same as 777 loose.

Last edited by shortwave; October 23, 2012 at 12:03 PM.
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Old October 23, 2012, 12:18 PM   #12
shortwave
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Okay, now I remember where I got my info from.

Same place you did articap.

From thread here on TFL IN 2009 titled:

Quote:
triple 7 powder charge
author:comancheblack2
November 10, 2009 06:36 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Where did you get that? Hodgdon`s web site says nothing of the kind. Their advice regarding reduction of the 777 load to get an equivalent Pyrodex load is not specific to loose powder; it applies to 777 in any form.
Don`t know what Hodgdon`s website says but on the container of 777 50grn. pellets I'm looking at it states '50grn. volume equivalent'. As a follow up to WHAT is meant by "volume equivalent"(equivalent to what) , ie equivalent to volume amount of 777 or volume equivalent amount of b/p or Pyrodex I called Mike at Hodgdon (#1-913-362-9455). His explanation:"The 777 pellets are designed to be the volume equivalent of Pyrodex or ffg b/p. Shooting two 777 50 grn. pellets is the same as two 50 grn. Pyrodex pellets or 100 grns of loose Pyrodex/ffg b/p. Shooting a 777 50grn and 30 grn. pellets would be the same as shooting 80 grns. of loose Pyrodex/ffg b/p. Loose 777 powder should be reduced by 15% when changing from Pyrodex/ffg bp to 777 and wanting the same charge".
This topic came up back in 2009 and I made the same call to Mike at Hodgdon. His exact quote above in bold black.

Last edited by shortwave; October 23, 2012 at 01:08 PM.
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Old October 23, 2012, 03:18 PM   #13
mykeal
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Wow. Glad you corrected that. Hodgdon's unclear statement is exactly the one I took to mean loose 777.

How can they continue to publish such unclear - and ultimately misleading - information? Did he have an answer as to why they haven't cleared it up, considering that:
Quote:
Mike said that he gets asked the question all of the time
My opinion of Hodgdon's is greatly diminished this afternoon.

Now I have to figure out why I didn't remember that earlier thread, because I obviously read it back then - I posted in it, and I was just as wrong then. I usually remember when I've screwed up.

Last edited by mykeal; October 23, 2012 at 03:24 PM.
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Old October 23, 2012, 03:31 PM   #14
shortwave
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Hodgdon's unclear statement is exactly the one I took to mean loose 777.
Again, trying to remember from many years ago(I don't have a Hodgdon pellet box here to read from) but if memory serves me right, the directions on the pellet box itself did not explain things well either. ...

...and yes, you would think they(Hodgdon) would give a better explanation rather then saying the 777 pellets are equal to 'loose powder'. Instead they should specify 'what' loose powder.

Would clear up a lot of confusion.

Quote:
Now I have to figure out why I didn't remember that earlier thread, because I obviously read it back then - I posted in it ....
Hate to tell ya this but it doesn't get any better.
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Old December 24, 2012, 01:02 AM   #15
bubbinator
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TC 209 Wildcat

I'm sure glad I stay up late and read stuff like this! I'm in a similar boat to CDMcKane in that I inherited a full range of BP accessories for a T/C Black Diamond w/o the gun. So I bought a T/C Impact from BPS for $199 w/a 3x9x40 TC scope.
I have one new can of Pyrodex RS, which I now understand to be the exact equivalent of BP by volume-right? I have so far shot 2 pellet charges of White Hots, Pyrodex 50/50 and Hodgdon Triple 7 50gr. pellets. Not satisfied with accuracy of any at this point shooting 240 practice sabots, or 240 Hornady XTPs even though I did take a nice Al 8 pt in my back yard from about 80 yds with the 240 XTP. Having read maybe suggestions that loose powder may be more accurate none I've seen have mentioned anything about the 15% reduction in measured Triple 7 Vs T7 pellets. And I was shopping for T7 Magnum pellets (60grs!) What if I had tried to match that charge with loose T-7! Wow! Thanks Shortwave and Arcticap for the insight and warning.
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