The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 15, 2012, 06:13 PM   #26
misterE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2009
Location: Benton, Arkansas
Posts: 186
Ditto everything Kraig posted.

Herman - he's referring to the Stock ferrule to Barrel band contact point (correct me if I'm wrong Kraig). You should definitely grease between this contact point. It allows the barrel to stock contact to return to the same place every time more consistently.
misterE is offline  
Old October 15, 2012, 09:13 PM   #27
hermanpj
Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2012
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 77
Thanks!
__________________
NRA Member|Texas State Rifle Association Member| Texas Concealed Handgun License holder|Springfield M1A Loaded|Kimber Super Carry Pro .45 ACP|Weatherby SA 459 12 ga|Black Rain+Adams Arms Piston AR15|Beretta 92FS| CZ Dan Wesson ECO 9MM| Ruger 10/22
hermanpj is offline  
Old October 16, 2012, 07:59 PM   #28
4EVERM-14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2006
Location: Pennsy
Posts: 553
kraigwy's advice is spot on. I've been behind the trigger of an M1A since 1981. I wish could add something that he missed. Only thing I can think of is that I filled the holes for the cleaning kit in the stock with lead shot. It helps tame the recoil. The '14' is a great gun it's happiest when it's on the line doing the job it knows best.
__________________
David
NRA Benefactor Member
Distinguished Rifleman #731
Presidents 100
4EVERM-14 is offline  
Old October 17, 2012, 01:36 PM   #29
MJ1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2008
Posts: 327
;)

I never found one that tight. I had a set of cut out aluminum jaws in my little arms room that fit in a vise to hold bbl and gas cylider and a whack with my nylon lead filled mallet on the gas plug/rod handle would do it. Even in the rainy season our FM's said just finger tight and no lube on the plug and check it often. Possibly new made plugs have courser/rougher cut threads. You do have the tool? Good luck.

..MJ..
__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"
--Unknown Soldier--
Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid.
- David Hackworth -
MJ1 is offline  
Old October 19, 2012, 12:10 AM   #30
hermanpj
Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2012
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 77
2nd trip to the range, updates and more questions

OK, second trip to the range today, 60 more rounds through my M1A Loaded.

First here's what I've done since first trip to the range, and in light of all the great advice I got.

1. I made the 12 ga. rod guide, and got a stainless steel cleaning rod
2. The gas plug came off - this time with very little effort. No reason. Can't explain it. OK. I cleaned it throughly and applied a small amount of anti-seeze to the threads. The gas piston was clean, didn't do anything to it but wipe it on a gun cleaning cloth and put it back in. put the plug back on. I did note that my gas piston lock does not begin to tighten up until AFTER it should be locked at the 12 O'Clock postion - so shims to be ordered, however question on that below under 'Plans'
3. I put the Springfield walnut handguard and leather cheekpiece on. Explatives deleted. This is one fine looking rifle. care taken to ensure there is a gap between handgard and stock all the way around.
4. I put a Harris bipod mount in the stock (had to trim the metal to fit the cut out in the stock and cut down the swivel screw so that there would be no contact with the gas system, then I primer coated all the bare metal on those pieces with high temp paint)
5. Bought a bench rest to assist sighting it in. Went cheap on the bench rest. Regretting it.
6. Tried the card stock bedding - more on that below
7. Applied grease between the stock ferrule and front barrel band as advised

Card Stock Bedding
I was unable to complete this. I cut strips of bedding from manila file folders and glued 2 identical strips together to form bedding strips. I made strips for
- between receiver and stock (to go under the receiver right and left side)
- between receiver and stock at horseshoe / rear of receiver
- between receiver and stock INSDE the stock (vertical pieces to go between the wood of the stock and the metal of the veritcal lug bars)
- between the trigger and stock - where the horizontal flat metal of the trigger assembly meets the bottom of the stock - small "L" shapes in mirror images of each other.

I could not get the trigger guard to close up with the card stock in place. so i started working my way backwards. ultimately it would not close it ANY of the card stock was in place. I will try again to bed it with cards that are only 1 layer thick.

How it Shot Today - all shooting at the Elm Fork Range, Irving, TX, 100 yard range, all shooting from the sitting position:-20 rounds of Remmington 150 Grain CoreLokt PSP: these were the best shooting of the day, which supprised me given they were the cheapies I intended to use to help me tune the sights. All 20 shots with bench rest:
- 10 shots spent sight tuning, including 3 off the paper ( told you i'm not a very good shot)
- 1 group: 3 shots in 7/8" contiguous
- 1 flier apprx 1" separation from above group
- 1 group: 2 shots in 3/4" not contiguous
- 1 group: 4 shots in 3/4" by 3/4" contiguous goup

The remaining 40 shots were with Federal 168 Grain Sierra Matchking BTHP
-Next 31 shots were disappointing. I'd love opinions here, but I was expecting to be KILLING it with these rounds. Maybe they were too hot for the gun? Recoil may have been heavier, and I noticed my self scewing around with the rest quite a bit. Best shooting in these 31 rounds was 3 rounds in a 1 inch by 3/4" non-contiguous group. typical grouping was 4-5 rounds in a 2 inch group.

For the last 9 shots, I abandoned the benchrest and attached bipod. Tightened the rifle sling, wrapped it around left arm, then brought my left hand back until the sling was taut. 3 groups
-3 shots in 3/4" by 1/2" contiguous goup
-2 shots in a 3/4"group
-4 shots in 1 1/2" by 1" group

Any theories why the Federal Premium seemingly shot worse?

Plans
1. To address the gas system lock up, I will install shim(s). However, as an alternative, if I have the $115 bucks laying around, the question is, is it worth it to go ahead and upgrade to the National Match unitized gas cylinder+front barrel band?
2. Going on the theory that I was fortunate to get an M1A loaded with very tight action, I'm going to re-make the card stock bedding, this time 1 layer thick. Long term, I may get it glass bedded, but for now, going to try the card stock again. Did it sound like i was doing it right? would me showing pictures help?
3. Going to get a Sadlak national match Op Rod Spring Guide
4. Considering getting a Sadlak TiN coated National Match Gas Piston

Now you reading this are wondering, heck if you wanted a National Match gun, why didnt' you just buy it that way. :-)
__________________
NRA Member|Texas State Rifle Association Member| Texas Concealed Handgun License holder|Springfield M1A Loaded|Kimber Super Carry Pro .45 ACP|Weatherby SA 459 12 ga|Black Rain+Adams Arms Piston AR15|Beretta 92FS| CZ Dan Wesson ECO 9MM| Ruger 10/22
hermanpj is offline  
Old October 19, 2012, 05:24 PM   #31
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,208
Quote:
For the last 9 shots, I abandoned the benchrest and attached bipod. Tightened the rifle sling, wrapped it around left arm, then brought my left hand back until the sling was taut.
Good, now toss the bipod. Let the sling do the work.

Quote:
I cleaned it throughly and applied a small amount of anti-seeze to the threads.
Take the gas plug out and clean that crap off. Its not needed, its not suppose to be applied.

Quote:
I noticed my self scewing around with the rest quite a bit
Until you stop flopping around, don't change any thing with the gun or ammo.

Federal 168 Match was made for the M14/M1A. Its not too hot and should work. Might want to find out if you're barrel might be a 4 grove barrel. They don't like 168s. They were made for the 174 grn Mil Match bullet. I had to issue two guns to my NG Team members, one with the 4 grove, for M118 and one with the 6 grove barrel for the M852 (168 gr SMK).

The Fed match is the same as the M852 Match.

I'm still not getting this shim business, I"ve been shooting M14/M1As since 1966 and never heard of having to shim the gas system.

As to the upper hand guard. There should be clearance. It shouldn't touch the stock at all.

I believe one of the problems (in shooting) might be improper cheek weld.

Try tossing the scope and cheek pad until you learn to shoot consistent with irons. Its easier to get a constant cheek weld.

The definition of Accuracy is Consistency.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old October 19, 2012, 05:57 PM   #32
MJ1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2008
Posts: 327
;) LOL

Put the J.C. Whitney catalog down and shoot the thing as is till you know it.

__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"
--Unknown Soldier--
Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid.
- David Hackworth -
MJ1 is offline  
Old October 19, 2012, 09:23 PM   #33
hermanpj
Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2012
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 77
thanks guys

The shim thing is to make the gas system lock tight by the time it gets aligned to accept the gas plug. mine is pretty loose and will actually turn quite a bit past where it should be locked up. im not sure that matters, you guys may tell me it doesnt, and I'd be good w that. what i've read is it should be tight, but if yall are shooting great w it more loose like mine, just let me know.

On the barrell, Springfield M1A Loaded model MA9222 has a 22" 6 Groove 1:11 right hand twist national match medium weight premium air gauged barrell (Springfield's description), so KraigWY I guess it should be a good match up with the Federal Premium Match 168 grain ammunition.

Hand guard does have clearance all the way around so I'm good there. I was very careful to make sure it did not interfere with the stock when trying to mate the receiver, stock and trigger group.

I hear you on not changing the gun or ammo until I stop changing my shooting postion and technique. I would love input though on whether the national match gas system is considered by you a worthwhile investment compared to the GI gas system. I saw your opinion KraigWY that the National Match Op Rod Spring Guide is worth it. Don't worry, I'm not sitting here with the Brownell's website pulled up just itching to drop hundreds of dollars into this gun without first getting the most from it - I am just interested in accuracy, and you guys seem to be giving good advice to get me on track.

KraigWY I would definitely do the shooting with irons only, and agree w you it would be a good way to really get to know the gun. A couple challenges:
1. there is no range here that allows shooting iron sights at 100 yards or more
2. my eyesight aint great at 100 yards even with vision correction

So what I'll do is keep the scope on but shoot with the irons (at 100 yards the irons are not interefered with by the sight mount) and see how i do. The Range Officer will not know the difference. I will ditch the bipod next trip and see how i do w just the sling though.

I'd like to follow your advice on the card bedding. I'll try to post photos of what I made and you can tell me if i did it right or mis-interpreted.

Finally, I'd appreciate some input on the theoretical capability of the gun. Not talking about how good I personally can expect to shoot it, today or even next year, but rather, how good should it be able to shoot with the right ammo, and with someone like you guys shooting it... how good can it shoot given its not glass bedded. that would set a good upper limit for me on expectations. what i mean is, if the gun isn't capable of stacking every round in a dime size hole, fine, i'm not that good a shooter (at least not right now) anyway. if 4-5 rounds in a 3/4" contiguous group at 100 yards is about as good as it gets if the gun is not glass bedded, I'd just like to know it so i can be educated on what its limits are.

Will say it again, i really appreciate your input and candor here as yall are the experts and I am the grasshopper here.
__________________
NRA Member|Texas State Rifle Association Member| Texas Concealed Handgun License holder|Springfield M1A Loaded|Kimber Super Carry Pro .45 ACP|Weatherby SA 459 12 ga|Black Rain+Adams Arms Piston AR15|Beretta 92FS| CZ Dan Wesson ECO 9MM| Ruger 10/22
hermanpj is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 08:35 PM   #34
misterE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2009
Location: Benton, Arkansas
Posts: 186
Herman, sounds like you've got a shooter. My loaded prefers Remington 150 trainers too. Except for fgmm 168's. Anything sub moa from a semi automatic battle rifle is outstanding in my opinion. Sounds like you had some sub moa groups already. Best my "loaded" has done was 5/8 and that was just a 3 shot group one time. More often it 3/4 to 1 1/4. This is entirely acceptable to me. My newly acquired NM will shoot more like 1/2 to 1 inch groups consistently.

I put the gas shims on at the recommendation of some of the guys over at the M14 forum and what I did for me is shrink the vertical size of my groups by about 30%. Now Kraig is definitely the guru on these rifles, but it can't hurt anything and it's cheap and easy to do. I would definitely do this before I spent the money on a unitized system.

The only place I put the card stock was on the sides of the receiver with just a little bit folded out over the top edge to the stock. Just used one layer. This really seemed to tighten everything up ; receiver to stock, and trigger group lockup got a lot tighter.

I too agree with shooting the irons. It's much easier to get a good cheek weld and you will be amazed at what you can hit with those irons. By far the best irons I've ever had on a rifle. Can you shoot at 50 yards with irons at your range?

All in all, sounds like you have a beautiful shooter. Enjoy!
misterE is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 08:39 PM   #35
misterE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2009
Location: Benton, Arkansas
Posts: 186
Also Herman, it sounds like you enjoy tinkering with your rifle as much as I do. I never ever messed with a gun as much as I did when I got that first M1A. It is just fun to work on isn't it.
misterE is offline  
Old October 21, 2012, 06:07 AM   #36
madcratebuilder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 4,868
Unitizing the gas cylinder, either a screw and glue or welding, and shimming when reinstalled well do more for accuracy than about any other mod.

Article on shimming,
http://m14forum.com/reference/89156-...nment-how.html



Quote:
On the barrell, Springfield M1A Loaded model MA9222 has a 22" 6 Groove 1:11 right hand twist national match medium weight premium air gauged barrell (Springfield's description), so KraigWY I guess it should be a good match up with the Federal Premium Match 168 grain ammunition.
Wilson six groove that SAI has been using for years. Those 3/4" groups are good from your rifle.
madcratebuilder is offline  
Old October 21, 2012, 05:47 PM   #37
hermanpj
Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2012
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 77
Mister E thanks a bunch for clarifying how you applied the card stock - I'm going to give it another try today and then hopefully get out to the range next weekend and see how that does. I do like to tinker w my guns, but mainly have put tinkinering into the AR I built. On this one I am so appreciative to have this forum where you guys really know your stuff and can give guidance so that I only improve, not detract from what seems to be a very good rifle!

Yeah, they do have a 50 yard range where I go, but its really only for scope sight-in. Its got 1 lane and they don't let you loiter on it. They have a 'tactical' range but its typically full of LE personnel, or at the opposite extreme, dudes doing mag-dumps from their AKs and SKSs... however: there's this other place on the other side of Dallas which has about a 70 yard range that is an indoors, and is mostly where I shoot my AR and my pistols. I can shoot the iron sights there!

MadCrateBuilder (is that mad crate engines or what?) I'm definietly ordering the shims. Then depending on how it shoots over 10 or so sessions, and how I improve, etc., I'll probably move to the national match unitized gas system. At that time I'll also pick up a national match op rod spring guide.

I also met a gentleman last week at the range who is retired as a machinist and has been gunsmithing last 15 years or so. He mostly does complete custom mauser actioned rifles, but he said he's also glass bedded a few M1As with great results so perhaps in the spring (when my bank account has recovered!) I'll get him to glass bed it.

As Kraig had said, true accuracy is consistency, so I'll be trying to see if I can get it to do 3 shot 3/4" groups consistently. Im not after Super Match performance - but I'm intrigued how accurate I can make it perform out to 200 yards.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg m1a target.jpg (78.0 KB, 4 views)
__________________
NRA Member|Texas State Rifle Association Member| Texas Concealed Handgun License holder|Springfield M1A Loaded|Kimber Super Carry Pro .45 ACP|Weatherby SA 459 12 ga|Black Rain+Adams Arms Piston AR15|Beretta 92FS| CZ Dan Wesson ECO 9MM| Ruger 10/22
hermanpj is offline  
Old October 21, 2012, 10:50 PM   #38
hermanpj
Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2012
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 77
card bedding complete

I did finally get card bedding complete. Will see how well it works next weekend!
__________________
NRA Member|Texas State Rifle Association Member| Texas Concealed Handgun License holder|Springfield M1A Loaded|Kimber Super Carry Pro .45 ACP|Weatherby SA 459 12 ga|Black Rain+Adams Arms Piston AR15|Beretta 92FS| CZ Dan Wesson ECO 9MM| Ruger 10/22
hermanpj is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13515 seconds with 10 queries