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Old October 17, 2012, 01:46 PM   #26
Glenn E. Meyer
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Why assume if you choke him out, that he is not carrying a knife. It quickly comes out as you apply the choke and does damage to the choker. They teach that in knife class. Probably in prison too.

My point is that if you are in the mix, it escalates. The woman could easily start stabbing the good samaritan wrestler.

Guns gave us distance benefits. You don't want to physically engage unless you really, really have to. Romanticizing one's physical abilities is dangerous.

Whether you should intervene is another complex story. We've done that endlessly.
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Old October 17, 2012, 02:44 PM   #27
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I'm on my work phone and haven't watched the video. If its the one I'm thinking of the attacker is a monster sized convicted felon. 7 guys might be enough to take him down, but how do you know the other six are going to jump in?)

I'd tell someone to call 911, back up and draw. I'd tell the guy to get off the victim, and if I thought the victims would be killed, and I had a clear shot without endangering others, I'd do what I had to do. It's clearly a disparity of force. If he stopped the attack on the victim and attacked me, again, I'd do what I had to do.
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Old October 17, 2012, 02:52 PM   #28
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along with a gun to back you up. Don't bring lethal force into it until you are completely justified in doing so. If he or she pulls a knife, bang. The kick lets you stay out of reach, if you miss, nothing lost, really. Just jump away. If he pursues you, then he's not beating the other guy, and you are at least justified in drawing if he switches his attention to you. If he actually charges you, well, then, all the holes in his chest/head are on him, as they say.
You might want to watch the video before deciding that you'd have the freedom of mobility to do all this.

I'd be curious as to how it would play out, if you assert you did not need to use lethal force, and by involving yourself by kicking him or attempting to kick him, you escalate the situation to needing to use lethal force.
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Old October 17, 2012, 03:18 PM   #29
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Well now, this happened to me in south omaha one time. I intervined, no carry weapon on me cause it wasnt allowed in them days.

At 350 lbs this guy is smaller than me. FYI.

Another note, a gal and guy were getting into it in the bar. I get between em and ask them to take it somewhere else, that gal hit me with her purse hard upon my head the guy tried but my backup caught his arm and almost tore it off the guy. So in this situation if anyone got at the guy that gal would leap on him too. Be carefull, you may get hurt.

Best to call 911 now we have cell phones first, then act if you can. Many folks will hesitate to take on a huge man and that is OK too.
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Old October 17, 2012, 05:09 PM   #30
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By the time a 911 operator gets done asking the questions so you answer them the way they want them answered the guy is already beat to hell. Compel someone to call while you, if you choose to, engage. The victim could be dead before the responding officer gets the call.

Maybe I'm not very smart, but I can't see myself standing around while another human being is being beaten. This guy survived, but freak things happen and the beating this guy survived may have been enough to kill someone else. I'd have a hard time living with myself if I didn't at least try to help.
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Old October 17, 2012, 05:59 PM   #31
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I just don't know for sure. Possibly draw and order him to quit. If he turned to me, I'd have to shoot.

Some years ago, here, a man was beating hs wife. A good samaritan told him to quit. When he didn't, the GS shot him until he was dead. No charges were filed either.
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Old October 17, 2012, 06:40 PM   #32
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I watched the video just now. The guy is about 300 pounds and slow as cold molasses but he could still have a knife (or the girlfriend could). I still can't say I would physically intervene for that reason and ones already stated although I've probably got a 70-80 pound advantage over the guy. Also, the victim's injuries were not quite as severe as the OP originally believed. In light of all that I would probably have still drawn down on the man.
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Old October 17, 2012, 07:23 PM   #33
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No way I would stand there and let some guy get beaten senseless, a swift kick to the knee cap will take down anyone regardless of size. I wrestled a couple years and am alot stronger than the average guy out there, but trying to wrestle someone to the ground who outweighs you by that much is a pretty big feat.

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Old October 17, 2012, 07:37 PM   #34
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Anybody who carries, and wouldn't intervene in this situation, might as well sell all your guns. You're just a poser.
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Old October 17, 2012, 07:52 PM   #35
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In 1974, I took an oath to uphold the law and protect and serve the residents of the state I served in. In 2001 I retired but, as far as I’m concerned that oath was not for the term of my employment but, whenever possible for life. With the information given, an unprovoked attack by a very large human who was repeatedly striking an unarmed person with the intent of causing serious harm or death, I would have to get involved. The attacker made a decision to use deadly force against another human, so he has to understand there are consequences for his actions, and one of those may be getting shot at close range.

In my 28 years in law enforcement, as most cops, I saw way to much mindless violence and I abhor it, yet there are some people who will only respond to a violence that exceeds their capacity for violence. I also abhor the fact that we as a nation have become a violent society that folks such as me, rightly, feel the need to go armed much of the time.

I don’t know what the answer to our problems is, but I do know it’s time the majority of good honest folks stop coddling the small minority, and let them know their days of trying to run rough shod over the rest of us are over.
Sorry for the rant, but boy do I feel better now.
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Old October 17, 2012, 08:39 PM   #36
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I thought I would toss my nickel into the fray and say.
I would do my best to distract the assailant verbally, and I expect he would turn twords me in some form of attack mode at wich point I would give him a one and a half second block of instruction concerning the Mozambique Drill. If his Gelatinous Twinkie Queen decided to join in, then a follow up course of instruction concerning the Mozambique Drill would coomence.

But then this isn't a perfect world,
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Old October 17, 2012, 08:42 PM   #37
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I'm surprised no one mentioned the use-of-force continuum. It may not completely apply in this situation but it does make sense here.

First and foremost, if I were with loved ones, I'd send them away to a safe place. In this situation I would have yelled for the guy to stop. I carry pepper spray because one can't always utilize deadly force. If he didn't stop pummeling the victim, I'd spray the guy to at least slow him down. After spraying, I'd get the hell out of there. At least that would break up the beating. Shooting the guy would be the last option.
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Old October 17, 2012, 09:00 PM   #38
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Wheeew man that was tough to watch. I HAVE TO BELIEVE that at least one person in there thought it was a random act that should have been stopped. But based on the group reaction to her and her 500lb gorilla boyfriend....I think every one of them was scared. Period.

I dont know what I would have done in that situation in such a confined room. PArticularly if it was VERY late night and lets assume half of them were drunk with munchies.

I honestly dont know....but I for sure would like to think I would have tried to stop a massacre like that when it rolled out in front of me like that. Someone should have stepped up
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Old October 17, 2012, 09:07 PM   #39
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I would have left the pizza place when the woman went off. I would have been out of the parking lot well before the real problems occured. That is, if I were a bystander. If I had been the person she was trying to poke in the face.. I would never have allowed her to get that close to me.. I would have kept 6-8 feet between us and left the pizza place. If her and her bfriend tried to prevent me from leaving,.. then I would have reacted. As long as I can safetly leave a problem area, I will. The game changes if I cant.
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Old October 17, 2012, 09:51 PM   #40
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Thanks for the comment Old Bear. Thanks for your service too.
Not fully understanding the legalities in this instance is what would cause most of us to pause and pond instead of react on instinct.

Hamm0ckjames put it best. Getting the BG to turn aggressively towards me, him, us, would clarify the need for force, as opposed to shooting him in the back and trying to explain it.
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Old October 18, 2012, 12:35 AM   #41
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Unless I was directly assaulted or a bystander was hurt or the subject(s) made a hostile move, I'd keep my concealed weapon(s) secured.
What's the difference between a bystander and the manager?

I'd have to try to help. You can't just stand there while someones being beaten. I wouldn't like it, and I'd expect to be arrested, but a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do. What kind of man would I be to not help?
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Old October 18, 2012, 06:14 AM   #42
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If a guy is 350lbs.... 9 times outta 10 he is going to be slower than you! Me I'm 170lbs. Honestly I would have gone for a couple of hits no matter what he had. I used to BOX a few years ago and I have learned that people of that size move very slow. Just because someone is big doesn't mean they can hurt you. They have to catch you first!!!
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Old October 18, 2012, 07:35 AM   #43
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Confined spaces favor the big and slow guy a lot more than they do the small and quick guy. Most small and quick guys need some maneuvering room. Big guys can just use what a large friend of mine used to call the "Amoeba technique" and simply envelop the small person to the floor, after which speed and quick reflexes are much less helpful to the small guy.

Others have already noted the additional potential threat posed by the female who started the whole thing.

If armed, I'd suggest using the weapon in order to have some ability to maintain such distance as there is, and not to get physically tied up with a big dude while losing situational awareness of where the female is.

Females may have knives, guns, or improvised weapons, too.
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Old October 18, 2012, 08:43 AM   #44
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On the law.

In Texas, you can use force or deadly force to defend another under the same circumstances you could use force or deadly force to defend yourself. So basically, you are talking about a reasonable belief that the other is in imminant danger of losing his life or sustaining severe bodily injury.

With a little further reading, I figured out that the DA has to prove - beyond a reasonable doubt - that your fear was NOT reasonable. And in this case, if you say you thought the guy was trying to murder the victim, the DA would have to prove - beyond a reasonable doubt - that he wasn't. If the DA couldn't do that, the jury has to find that your fear was reasonable. (That's sort of an extended Castle Doctrine that Texas has).

So imagine that you are a member of the jury. And say all the evidence is that video. I'd conclude that he probably was trying to kill the guy. And I don't see how anyone could watch that and conclude any less than he might have been trying to kill the guy. Either way, that's a win for the Defendant.

And I don't claim any special knowledge of this law. I can just read and write. So talk to your Texas lawyer who does criminal law before you decide to get aggressive.
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Old October 18, 2012, 09:02 AM   #45
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Big guys can just use what a large friend of mine used to call the "Amoeba technique" and simply envelop the small person to the floor, after which speed and quick reflexes are much less helpful to the small guy.
Never heard it called that, but he's right, big guy gets on top of or a hold on the smaller man the fight is over. It's only a matter of how bad the big guy decides to hurt you. If said big guy also has an eight ball of cocaine flowing through his veins (don't know if this guy did, but it's very possible), then it's like picking a fist fight with a grizzly bear.
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Old October 18, 2012, 09:09 AM   #46
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My first instinct would be to leave, try to flag down a police car while dialing 911. However, the woman was blocking the door, and her boyfriend was also either in the doorway or near the doorway while hitting the victim. That leaves very few options.

As to my possibly interfering in the altercation, I am 60 with arthritis and a few other health problems. I am in no way ready or able to physically intervene; I'll keep my man card anyway. It's easy to imagine holding your ring to the green lantern and getting super powers, but the reality is that those guys see two people beating up on one victim (yes she tries to stop the beater, but she started the physical confrontation as well) and have no idea how to intervene or what the risks are (nobody has mentioned the possibility that the BG may have more friends outside) so they stay frozen. In a stress situation, you revert to your training; these guys likely had none.

I also find myself disturbed at the reactions of the news anchors. They are laughing. If they had been there in person, I'm pretty sure that they would have needed to change their underwear.
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Old October 18, 2012, 09:10 AM   #47
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Big guys can just use what a large friend of mine used to call the "Amoeba technique" and simply envelop the small person to the floor, after which speed and quick reflexes are much less helpful to the small guy.
Learned that valuable lesson during my own wrestling days - 300lbs+ is waaaaay above my weight class, and I will take any advantage I can get.

As for the female participant - yes, she should be kept in view at all times. In this case, it is entirely likely that she would come to the aid of her boyfriend. Heck, there have been times that women who, having been beaten 5 minutes beforehand will turn on their "rescuer" in an attempt to back up their assailant/significant other
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Old October 18, 2012, 09:55 AM   #48
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To me the beating in the video wasn't about trying to kill the guy, it was about beating the hell out of him. If the guy would have dropped the big guy may not have kept striking, but he saw a weak guy and wanted to hurt him because he was still (sort of) standing.

So where is the line drawn between using deadly force if the victim has a fat lip and a broken nose versus the broken eye socket and pulverized face.

Making the right call on using deadly force in the defense of someone else is the clearest in hindsight. Hope to never be in that situation.
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Old October 18, 2012, 10:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by dstryr
So where is the line drawn between using deadly force if the victim has a fat lip and a broken nose versus the broken eye socket and pulverized face.
There isn't a line when it's happening. That's why the law says that a person must have a "reasonable belief" of "grievous bodily harm or death".

The actual future end-result is not relevent. You can't know if the person is going to throw one punch and walk away (which could actually be fatal by itself) or if he's going to flatten your head and kill your wife.

If a reasonable person would have cause to fear grievous injury or death, deadly force is generally authorized in defense of self or others.

There are other qualifiers also but in context of your question and this scenario, that would be the standard in almost all places in the US.
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Old October 18, 2012, 10:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Woody55
....In Texas, you can use force or deadly force to defend another under the same circumstances you could use force or deadly force to defend yourself. So basically, you are talking about a reasonable belief that the other is in imminant danger of losing his life or sustaining severe bodily injury.

...I figured out that the DA has to prove - beyond a reasonable doubt - that your fear was NOT reasonable....
A little too superficial an analysis.

You will need to present evidence that all requirements for justified use of lethal force were satisfied. But even if you don't have to "prove" it, you must be convincing. The less convincing you are, the easier it will be for the DA to meet his burden of proof and overcome your claim of justification.

But in any case, this thread has been beaten to death. Interesting discussion, but no conclusion is possible.

So we'll call it a day.
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