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Old October 7, 2012, 04:43 PM   #51
481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR:
Any info provided by Chuck Hawks should be taken with a grain of salt........
More like a dump truck full of salt- most of his 'site is stuck in the 1990s!
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Old October 8, 2012, 11:30 AM   #52
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This "one-shot stopping power" holy grail thing might be just a mirage. It is one of those things that would be nice to know, if it existed.

How many here have had professional training in defensive handguns?

Of those, how many have been taught to shoot once and only once?

In the two places where I have been trained the training is/was (assuming a single threat): Shoot twice to center of mass, assess, and proceed as necessary.

A handgun is a compromise, that is hopefully "good enough" to get the job done. That job is to incapacitate an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death as quickly as possible.

It is not about lethality.
It is about stopping the threat.

It is irrelevant whether the threat dies sometime in the distant future. Merely firing a handgun is legally using deadly force in most jurisdictions. It is relevant whether the threat is able to bring its attack to you and do you great harm.
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Old October 8, 2012, 06:26 PM   #53
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Oh My.....the horse must have got up and ran a lap or two.

The things that happen when one disappears for a couple or three days of hunting.

Guess we'll need to have a discourse on the subject for those who are a little young to remember the flame war!
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Old October 8, 2012, 06:52 PM   #54
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looks like glaser blue and magsafe are about the best in most.
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Old October 8, 2012, 07:39 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajun47
looks like glaser blue and magsafe are about the best in most.
Where does it look like they are the best in most? And in most what?

They actually have a lousy reputation for penetration, and adequate penetration is one of the most important attributes in a defensive cartridge.
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Old October 8, 2012, 08:07 PM   #56
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I choose the weapons platform which I can shoot the most accurate and reliably. Then I pick the caliber.
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Old October 9, 2012, 04:41 PM   #57
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I'd say this chart is wildly optimistic about the ability of any handgun round to produce a "one shot stop" whatever that is.

But I'm just another guy on the internet with an opinion.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 9, 2012 at 10:12 PM. Reason: delete vulgarity
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Old October 11, 2012, 06:59 PM   #58
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I read a "stopping power" article recently, that focused on the people who were shot, rather than on the cartridge that stopped them. That is, the numbers focused on what proportion of people were stopped with a single shot, what proportion with two shots, THEN looked at the cartridges used. It was interesting, in that of those stopped with one round, it didn't really matter what hit them. Most people are stopped if shot once. Only when more than one round was required did caliber/cartridge start to make a difference. I'll see if I can find it . . .
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Old October 11, 2012, 09:28 PM   #59
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Exactly, and I think it's "unfair" to remove psychological stops from the numbers. If someone stops what they're doing, because they've been shot (in the thumb, with a .22), then that's a one-stop shot.
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Old October 12, 2012, 09:48 AM   #60
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when your ears are blown out, your eyes dazzled by flashes, target is moving, and you are ducking bullets/blows, you'll miss the entire man, half of the time, at 10 yds, and miss the chest half the time, at 10 FEET, just like everyone else does.
Quote:
more flee at shots fired that miss. Many flee at any sort of a hit, even a '"mere" .22l, so it's actually pretty rare for you to have to repeatedly hit him in the chest with powerful loads.
Really? And you base your hypothesis on what exactly?
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Old October 12, 2012, 10:04 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Exactly, and I think it's "unfair" to remove psychological stops from the numbers. If someone stops what they're doing, because they've been shot (in the thumb, with a .22), then that's a one-stop shot.
It makes sense why he removed the psychological effect from the equation. With people being so hell bent on finding the "magic bullet"

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Old October 12, 2012, 11:28 AM   #62
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I dont agree that a thumb shot with a 22 (or anything else) should qualify as a one shot stop. For the intent of the concept, it doesnt equate. Yes, I agree the concept is complicated, and clouded with the past theories/"tests"/debates, but its still a fair question. What works consistantly well?

The other aspect mentioned, a good hit with a 22 will "kill", whereas a poor hit with a 44 won't doesn't add anything usefull to the discussion. The difference between kill and stop are vast. I may be able to kill a deer with a 22 shot to the body, but it means little if I want to eat that deer, it wont likely succumb in any time frame thats going to do me much good, same with defensive use of some calibers. Yes, some smallish calibers are better than a sharp stick or harsh words, but many things will work much better, and predictably so. Dont shoot poorly with the 44, and it changes the picture entirely. That's a predictable result also. Shoot well. I'm not sure why it seems to be supposed that a larger caliber will be shot poorly in those comments.

There's no magic bullet or caliber. Some seem to work better than others on a consistant basis, some less so. Looking at the question is interesting, and can yield useful information. Still, no guarantees on exactly whats going to happen every single time. Kill enough critters, and that lesson is reinforced over time. Everyone wants definitive results. Life just isn't like that.

My default assumption isn't "they'll probably run off if they get shot or shot at", its more like the deer, "they're going to try their dead level best to do whatever thay had in mind when this started, or will take this very personal and aren't giving up easily". If it goes the other way, OK, if it goes the way I think it may, I don't want to handicap myself right from the start with the smallest gun I can carry.
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Old October 14, 2012, 09:36 AM   #63
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I've been a life member of NRA for 35 years now. every month, their mag has the Armed Citizen column, read it a few months in a row. you'll see. google for the Dept of Justice website, and search there for the annual Crime survey, most attacks are not made with a gun, and showing a gun is usually enough. While you are there, search for the FBI's UCR, uniform crime report. whichstates that most GUN fights occur at 10 ft and less! :-)
I have also been an NRA member for many years and my father before me, I am well aware of that publication. I am well aware of Jim Cirillo, having been an LEO myself for better than 3 decades and even met the man at FLETC.

Noise, flash and perceived recoil are all range issues. In a real gunfight, as soon as you get the adrenaline dump, your body is preparing for fight or flight. You will experience visual and auditory exclusion, you will lose fine motor skills and will feel clumsy. Time will S-L-O-W, well not really, but is seems like it as your brain is hyper sensitive capturing the most minute detail.

That is fact. Books, movies, and magazine articles may be based on fact, but are greatly embellished for the entertainment value.

Sorry I do not play the odds, I have my own personal rain cloud.
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Old October 14, 2012, 10:27 AM   #64
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"One shot stop', or the 'Jello shooters' ... I personally consider both sides pretty much the same and enjoy reading both results. I based my first choice in a handgun on the 'One shot stop' results. The .357 magnum is still my favorite caliber, followed closely by the .44 magnum. Like all things in life it seems okay for each individual to, 'Take what you like, and leave the rest'. I see no good point in everyone challenging the belief of another and trying to convince folks that their belief is the correct belief. As William Shakespeare put it, 'Lay on MacDuff, and damn'd be him who first cries, enough!'
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