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Old October 11, 2012, 01:59 PM   #26
Glenn E. Meyer
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We've had about 4 NDs into the leg with Serpas around here. Also, I have seen both newbies and experienced officers have to fight the holster for a draw at times.

A regional IDPA director says there has been significant discussion of banning from the sport. It may not be politically correct to do so as they are duty holsters for participating LEOs. They do have an affordance that leads to an ND. Such factors under stress can negate even lots of practice.
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Old October 11, 2012, 02:34 PM   #27
MLeake
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Seems to me that an awful lot of people want to use equipment to deal with a training and awareness issue.

Seriously, find an instructor, and learn how to move. It's not as physically demanding as some might believe; even having only one or two lessons would be a significant step up from the norm.

Put it another way.... My best friend has had a carry permit for several years, but I could never get him interested in any physical training. One day, when he was visiting, we were talking about a friend of mine who is a narcotics detective specializing in plain clothes street buys. That friend has prevented several attempted draws against him, and has taken several guns from people who tried to use them on him. (Proximity is NOT your friend when attempting a draw.)

So, my best friend was a bit doubtful. We grabbed a blue gun, and I had him attempt several draws against me, at arm's length distance. He was not successful, and pretty much every time he ended up with the muzzle of his blue gun in his throat.

We then reversed roles, and he tried to stop me from drawing on him. Again, he was not successful.

I'm slightly bigger than he is, but I don't dwarf him.

I was not using a retention holster. Note that I am not saying retention holsters are bad, I am simply saying that with proper training, the choice of equipment becomes less important. Also, with proper training (IE with each type and position of carry one might employ), carry options open up a bit.

Proper training and a retention holster would be a good combination.

The idea isn't to become Chuck Norris; the idea is to learn efficient movement, that seems faster than it actually is because it doesn't waste movement or effort.

This does not require great muscular strength or physical fitness - though strength and fitness are never bad things to have.

Don't believe it? Try to pick up a toddler who does not want to be picked up. Toddlers are small, weak, and not particularly coordinated - but they are very good at being awkward, and dropping all their weight as needed.

Similarly, try to take a rawhide chew from a dog, who thinks it's a game. Watch how the dog moves. It will typically shoulder in and pivot (towards or away).

Toddlers and dogs know they can't outmuscle a larger opponent, so they don't try - yet they are very good at frustrating larger opponents.

Edit: As I thought about it, I realized something similar may happen when leading a horse. If the horse starts drifting into me, I put an elbow behind its shoulder, dig the elbow in, and pivot slightly - this applies enough leverage and discomfort that a 210lb man can move a 1700lb horse. (We have Holsteiners, they are 18 hands and 1700lbs, I am not exaggerating.)

Last edited by MLeake; October 11, 2012 at 02:48 PM.
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Old October 11, 2012, 03:28 PM   #28
allaroundhunter
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Quote:
We've had about 4 NDs into the leg with Serpas around here. Also, I have seen both newbies and experienced officers have to fight the holster for a draw at times.
I have never had an ND with my Glock 19 and Serpa holster, but I have heard of them (and I am pretty sure they are banned from 3-gun use). When they are used properly, there are no problems. If the operator depresses the lock button and doesn't move his finger on the draw, it will be indexed on the frame, not on the trigger. Also, the only time the gun gets hung up is when you try to draw the firearm before completely depressing the lock.

My Serpa has even prevented a gun grab. However, its nature does make it more prone to NDs; and as a result I would recommend a Safariland ALS as a good OWB retention holster.
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Old October 11, 2012, 04:19 PM   #29
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My suggestion is to take three classes: a basic class, a carry class and a defensive class.

All of your questions will be answered, and you will get more information that you don't appear to know you need, as well as some valuable practice.

I do not believe one can be taught to carry a weapon well over the internet.

There are too many hidden questions (public restrooms) and questions specific to weapons (the Serpa is a good example).

Good luck!
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Old October 12, 2012, 08:59 PM   #30
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Take a actual class... in person.

Not all criminals are goof balls.. many know exactly how to take a handgun from someone who wants to keep it.
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Old October 15, 2012, 12:30 PM   #31
federali
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Alvin Lindell

Much of the weapon retention tactics taught in police academies are based on a marshal arts system developed by Alvin Lindell. They might be available on youtube.

I'm not a fan of open carry as I feel that if someone targets you to get the gun, he'll probably succeed. Likewise, if you're targeted for a robbery, the presence of your gun could prompt a pre-emptive strike and you'll be shot before you know you're in a gun battle.

I also find it difficult to have respect for someone who needs to open carry during the course of routine social interaction.
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Old October 15, 2012, 01:32 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Once again, this is not another open carry debate thread. Let's stay on topic.
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Old October 16, 2012, 01:19 PM   #33
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I've always suggested a knife on the opposite hip of your gun. The Kabar TDI is a simple knife for most without much training. Cutting down on their arm while holding your gun in place is the general idea. I teach a reverse grip, edge in method designed to hook the opponents arm away while cutting into the arm, again with a downward movement.

If that idea doesn't sit well, what Mleake said makes good sense. I've always been an advocate of pushing their arm down, while holding your gun down. It's harder for them to raise an arm up than for you to push down. I always add to that a sinking motion, lowering the center of gravity helps if the suddenly try to take you down. Being ahead of this is a good idea. Also, always pivot your gun side AWAY from them, it helps straighten the arm, making it weaker. That's about all I can explain right now, hope it helps.

P.S. my firearm training is no where near as impressive as many of the previous posters, but my martial arts training makes up for it. Kinda.
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Old October 16, 2012, 05:05 PM   #34
MLeake
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BlackFeather, there is a time to pivot away, and a time to pivot toward.

Away enables hip throws and some other techniques, but IMO toward puts a lot more stress on fingers and wrists - which are the weak points and easier to disrupt.

It's good to have more than one way to skin a cat, though. (Which is why, in aikido, we practice techniques alternating right and left hand, and entering or crossing, etc. Nothing is practiced in only one way.)

Edit: This, of course, is yet another reason why people who are seriously interested should find an actual instructor and take a class (or, better yet, classes). Things get oversimplified online, out of necessity, and training has to be sufficient that conscious mental processes don't get in the way.

Last edited by MLeake; October 16, 2012 at 05:21 PM.
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Old October 17, 2012, 02:13 AM   #35
BlackFeather
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I completely agree, seeing as your Aikido joint manipulation techniques are similar to our Kung Fu Chin Na techniques. Pressing the wrist in, towards the opponent, weakens the grip and can cause injury to the joint. We have a technique that would destroy a mans wrist if one was able to apply it from the position of a gun grab. We use something similar to this, at 2:12http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZx9gF9d6N8 Only we compress the wrist down with the right hand while holding the elbow up with the left.
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