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Old September 22, 2012, 10:31 PM   #26
jwrowland77
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Are you trimming then sizing or sizing then trimming?

I always trim after sizing the case. Having a variance of .001 in case length isn't going to make much of a difference. The .001 could be in inconsistencies in the pressure used on the calipers when measuring.
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Old September 22, 2012, 11:22 PM   #27
MrMitus
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Quote:
Possom Hollow with Drill attachment best 223 investment I have made. Trim about 250 cases to exactly 1.750 in about 15 minutes.
@Mr.RevolverGuy - I found the Possum Hollow Kwick Case Trimmer, but am having trouble locating the drill attachment. Do you have a link for the drill attachment?

Quote:
Are you trimming then sizing or sizing then trimming?

I always trim after sizing the case. Having a variance of .001 in case length isn't going to make much of a difference. The .001 could be in inconsistencies in the pressure used on the calipers when measuring.
@jwrowland77 - At first I was trimming then sizing, but as I mentioned I found that the sizing process was also effecting the length. So now I am sizing, then trimming. Glad to hear that the .001 isn't a big deal
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Old September 23, 2012, 09:18 AM   #28
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http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sgunreload.cfm
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:19 PM   #29
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Some Great Info Here!

MrMitus, there is some great advice here. I feel lucky that the members are willing to give some of their time! I am learning a great deal. Thanks to all!
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Old September 23, 2012, 05:38 PM   #30
brokenanew
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First thing if not mentioned is getting a reloading manual. I use the Lymans 49th. They have all case specs.
I ran into similar problems.

measure every aspect of the case and make sure it is within specs listed in the manual. Adjust your seating die by screwing in or out. You may have to get a couple of cases and play with it.
The dies instructions should give you a standard on how to set the die. most just lift the pillar up all the way then screw in the die til it touches plus 1/4 of a turn. From there size a case then measure ALL aspects. I mean all, and thats a lot of measuring. adjust die up or down and see how the measurements change. Though the only thing that will likely be off is going to be somewhere around the neck. That's where my problem was. So play with sizing die.

Trim AFTER you size

AND CRIMP. I hear people say they dont crimp for thier AR. If you have an M4 style ramp u HAVE TOO crimp. Those ramps are hard on ammo but do help keep dirt from getting into the chamber. Measure the nexk after crimping to make sure its not bulging past specs. I crimp heavily as a matter of fact. Keep in mind this could possible effect pressure a bit too, so watch for pressure signs if ur running hot loads. Thats a given anyways.

What is ur AR?
I ask because I spoke with a gentleman at the local gunshop that worked for Colt for a time. I happened to have bought a Colt AR from him so when I had the problem I went to talk to him. Hes says Colts have the slightest bit higher tolerances in all aspects of their weapons, including the chamber. If the case is even the slightest bit past specs and sometimes in a rare case just under them u might have problems with reloaded cases.Personally most people I know that load for ARs have had some difficulties getting started.

My experience. i had Lee die and for some reason it would not size to specs no matter how I played with it. Ended up getting a reading die and it works great! Could be your die just play with it measure, play with it measure, play with it measure. Good luck. Be safe and read a lot

O and the only real difference between 556 and 223 that I know of is chamber pressure. Its probably marked 223 on the lower but if your barrel is marked 556 or its a Colt or other milspec brand than its shouldnt matter... I think.
http://www.humanevents.com/2011/02/1...ould-hurt-you/

Wen u reload Mil brass like LC you have to keep in mind that the case walls are a tad thicker so the same pweder charges in those compared to lets say winchester cases are going to be higher, so BE CAREFUL. Whats safe on Win hornady and Rem cases may not be safe in mil brass

Last edited by brokenanew; September 23, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old September 23, 2012, 06:21 PM   #31
Marco Califo
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Wen u reload Mil brass like LC you have to keep in mind that the case walls are a tad thicker so the same pweder charges in those compared to lets say winchester cases are going to be higher, so BE CAREFUL. Whats safe on Win hornady and Rem cases may not be safe in mil brass
This is an oft repeated myth based on hearsay, and conjecture, that has in fact, been debunked in this thread and others - see my post on this topic. While this is true for 308, it is NOT true for 223 - LC are not materially and consistently any less volume than commercial. In fact the opposite may be true in many cases: see the chart and look for LC06 - they held the most.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...4&d=1336880187
As some one else said, "Be wary of those who want to tell you what they think they know. They may NOT."
And we use English language spelling here, not texting-child phonics.
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:43 PM   #32
MrMitus
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Quote:
Trim AFTER you size
@brokenanew - Thank you for also confirming this. I'm still learning how to set my seating die correctly and crimp. For now I'm just messing with empty rounds and continuing my reading.
Quote:
First thing if not mentioned is getting a reloading manual. I use the Lymans 49th. They have all case specs.
I do have a manual. I picked up Hornady's 8th Edition Reloading Handbook.
Quote:
What is ur AR?
I have a Smith & Wesson M&P15. I have swapped out the stock 16" barrel for a BCM Standard 14.5" Mid Length Barrel along with a few other cosmetic changes.

Quote:
This is an oft repeated myth based on hearsay, and conjecture, that has in fact, been debunked in this thread and others - see my post on this topic. While this is true for 308, it is NOT true for 223 - LC are not materially and consistently any less volume than commercial. In fact the opposite may be true in many cases: see the chart and look for LC06 - they held the most.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...4&d=1336880187
As some one else said, "Be wary of those who want to tell you what they think they know. They may NOT."
And we use English language spelling here, not texting-child phonics.
@Marco Califo - thanks for setting that strait
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:48 PM   #33
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Also I ordered a Hornady Headspace Gauge Kit , a Possum Hollow Trimmer and Possum Hollow Power Adapter.

The information you all have thrown at me in such a short time is just amazing... Overwhelming at some points, but absolutely appriciated

I'll keep you posted on my progress this week
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Old September 24, 2012, 06:40 AM   #34
stnosc
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Quote:
This is an oft repeated myth based on hearsay, and conjecture, that has in fact, been debunked in this thread and others - see my post on this topic. While this is true for 308, it is NOT true for 223 - LC are not materially and consistently any less volume than commercial. In fact the opposite may be true in many cases: see the chart and look for LC06 - they held the most.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...4&d=1336880187
Thanks for stating that. I saw at least two posts on this thread about military brass vs. commercial brass thickness that were based on urban legend.

An just to reiterate, here's a chart:



http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

Last edited by stnosc; September 24, 2012 at 06:47 AM.
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Old September 27, 2012, 10:45 AM   #35
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Ya know I just got a bunch of Winchester brass .223 not too long ago. Found that they weighed about the same as LC. Your right! Darn urban legends! BUT for some reason what same exact loads would show signs of pressure in the Winchester wouldn't in the LC. Thats weird? HOWEVER, other mil based brass (I think its considered mil brass) like WCC brass weighed quite a bit more. Thanks!

Its good ur asking questions. We all learn from them. yeah!
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Old September 28, 2012, 03:12 PM   #36
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Success!

After practicing on some empty rounds I finally got the seating and crimping the way I wanted. I loaded 30 rounds and went to the shooting range yesterday. The gun did not jam this time

Hornady Varmint 22 CAL .224" 55gr SP w/ Cannelure
21.6gn of Hodgdon H335 rifle powder
Federal small rifle primers
Used brass from the range that was trimmed to 1.751

I've had trouble getting my Hornady Camlock Case Trimmer to dial in exactly at 1.750 . I either over shoot it or end up at 1.751 . I ordered the Possum Hollow Case Trimmer and it has arrived, however the Power Adapter that I ordered separately has not even shipped yet and they won't respond to my emails or answer the phone haha... does anyone know of any other Power Adapter that would fit?

The brass was of mixed types and the amount of times it had been reloaded was unknown. I've purchased a Case Catcher for my AR15 so I can collect my brass instead of picking it up off the ground. This way I know what is what and I can sort it out as I use it for my own reference when I take it home. I'm still picking up what I can at the range, but I'm going through it now and sorting it by type and trying to be selective

The range I go to out here just opened up a Reloading Shop this week... I felt like a little kid in a candy store . I was extremely surprised to see all the goodies they had in stock. This will definitely make it easier on me in the future if I can't stand to wait for something to be shipped to me . I showed my reloads to the guy that was working there (he is the resident reloading expert at the range) and the only negative comment he had was that he thinks I could let back a little on the crimp.
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Old September 28, 2012, 03:17 PM   #37
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Thank you!!!!!

I would like to thank all the people that responded to this post and helped me through the beginning of my troubles here. Your input and resources are overwhelmingly awesome.
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Old September 28, 2012, 03:46 PM   #38
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MrMitus, I didn't see this mentioned before, but you might want to try some new brass. For a relatively small investment you can get some Winchester or Remington .223 brass. One of the things this will do is eliminate many of the issues you've been having with once (or more) fired brass. It will also give you a pretty decent reference point b/c the new brass will be within SAAMI specs.

There are different opinions about sizing new brass, some of those opinions vehemently stated. But, ceteris paribus, you are far safer loading new brass straight out of the bag than jamming up your AR or worse getting an over-pressure destructive disassembly. I've done it both ways and have never encountered a problem loading new brass without further prep.
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Old September 28, 2012, 03:54 PM   #39
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Quote:
MrMitus, I didn't see this mentioned before, but you might want to try some new brass. For a relatively small investment you can get some Winchester or Remington .223 brass. One of the things this will do is eliminate many of the issues you've been having with once (or more) fired brass. It will also give you a pretty decent reference point b/c the new brass will be within SAAMI specs.

There are different opinions about sizing new brass, some of those opinions vehemently stated. But, ceteris paribus, you are far safer loading new brass straight out of the bag than jamming up your AR or worse getting an over-pressure destructive disassembly. I've done it both ways and have never encountered a problem loading new brass without further prep.
@Ike666 - I definitely plan to make a large purchase of some new brass soon. Do you have any recommendations of places online to order from?
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Old September 28, 2012, 08:19 PM   #40
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I'd start small - just 100 cases. Sportsmans Warehouse, Cabelas, Midway, Dillon, CTD all sell popular brass in 100-unit lots. I say start small b/c you may have a good source of range brass and if you get ready to buy in bulk then I'd try the Brassman or similar.

A bag/box of 100 will give you a set known parameters to work from. I'd recommend Win or Rem b/c they are relatively inexpensive for experimenting with. Once you get your technique and load tuned, then you can start big-batch reloading.
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Old September 29, 2012, 04:11 AM   #41
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It's Federal 223 brass which is heavy with a reduced powder capacity, not Lake City. Lake City is in actuality is pretty good brass and will withstand repeated firings in a AR.
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Old September 29, 2012, 01:21 PM   #42
Wyo Dutch
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Tagging along

I'm new here and don't want to start off on the wrong foot.

Anyway... I read this thread top to bottom and was pretty darned impressed with the professionalism, knowledge and courtesy of all posters.

I've been reloading off and on since 1969, when I bought my first RCBS "Junior" press from Gander Mountain. (I was on active duty at the time.) I load .45acp, 9mm, .270, 30-06, 10mm and 7.62/.308. The 30-06 and 7.62 are for my 'collection' of Garands, 1903's and a couple M1A's.

I finally picked-up a 5.56/.223 after years of badgering from my sons, who learned to love that caliber in the Army. Anyway, I bought a Ruger Mini14 "tactical" and hung a Nikon M223 2 to 8 on it.

I started loading 5.56 this past week. Here is the skinny:

Brass - Once fired surplus from Jeff Bartlett (primer pocket swaged by Jeff)
Bullets - Surplus SS109
Primers - CCI type 41
Powder - H335

I carefully resize, deprime and prep all cases. I mic each case (I'm anal!) before priming and give them a visual inspection. Bullets are seated and lightly crimped.

1.74 = Case trim
2.23 = OAL

Here is my results thus far:

Powder charge Ambient temperature Chrony velocity

23.0 72 2,635
23.5 72 2,643
24.0 72 2,706
24.0 55 2,667
24.5 55 2,719
25.0 55 2,773

Fired cases show no signs of excessive pressure.

Since the Mini14 has a 16.12" barrel, I would expect that I'd see somewhere around 2,850 in a 20" AR15.

Anyway... Do my results square up with the experience of other readers? I'm leaning toward making this my go-to load.

Thanks in advance


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Old September 29, 2012, 08:35 PM   #43
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1.751 is fine. You could probably get away with 1.755. If your close to 1.760, trim. Personally, I trim anytime its over 1.755. Anything under I don't bother to trim.

By the way I use only winchester or LC brass for accurate and high quality reloaded rounds. I use whatever I can get...WCC, PPU, Rem R&P (dont know what that is) for plinking.
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Old September 30, 2012, 11:32 PM   #44
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Just a "for what it's worth": I always size new brass, just as if it were fired. measure and trim new brass also, if needed. just saying.
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Old October 1, 2012, 12:47 PM   #45
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Great information in this thread, thanks for everyone who took the time to reply.

Great reading.
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Old October 2, 2012, 01:27 AM   #46
MrMitus
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Quote:
I'd start small - just 100 cases. Sportsmans Warehouse, Cabelas, Midway, Dillon, CTD all sell popular brass in 100-unit lots. I say start small b/c you may have a good source of range brass and if you get ready to buy in bulk then I'd try the Brassman or similar.
A bag/box of 100 will give you a set known parameters to work from. I'd recommend Win or Rem b/c they are relatively inexpensive for experimenting with. Once you get your technique and load tuned, then you can start big-batch reloading.
@Ike666 - Definitely sounds like a good idea to me. Thank you

Quote:
It's Federal 223 brass which is heavy with a reduced powder capacity, not Lake City. Lake City is in actuality is pretty good brass and will withstand repeated firings in a AR.
@Tim R - I have heard quite a few negative comments about Federal 223 brass (for reloading)

Quote:
I'm new here and don't want to start off on the wrong foot.
Anyway... I read this thread top to bottom and was pretty darned impressed with the professionalism, knowledge and courtesy of all posters.
I've been reloading off and on since 1969, when I bought my first RCBS "Junior" press from Gander Mountain. (I was on active duty at the time.) I load .45acp, 9mm, .270, 30-06, 10mm and 7.62/.308. The 30-06 and 7.62 are for my 'collection' of Garands, 1903's and a couple M1A's.
I finally picked-up a 5.56/.223 after years of badgering from my sons, who learned to love that caliber in the Army. Anyway, I bought a Ruger Mini14 "tactical" and hung a Nikon M223 2 to 8 on it.
I started loading 5.56 this past week. Here is the skinny:
Brass - Once fired surplus from Jeff Bartlett (primer pocket swaged by Jeff)
Bullets - Surplus SS109
Primers - CCI type 41
Powder - H335
I carefully resize, deprime and prep all cases. I mic each case (I'm anal!) before priming and give them a visual inspection. Bullets are seated and lightly crimped.
1.74 = Case trim
2.23 = OAL
Here is my results thus far:
Powder charge Ambient temperature Chrony velocity
23.0 72 2,635
23.5 72 2,643
24.0 72 2,706
24.0 55 2,667
24.5 55 2,719
25.0 55 2,773
Fired cases show no signs of excessive pressure.
Since the Mini14 has a 16.12" barrel, I would expect that I'd see somewhere around 2,850 in a 20" AR15.
Anyway... Do my results square up with the experience of other readers? I'm leaning toward making this my go-to load.
Thanks in advance
@Wyo Dutch - I haven't had a chance to start loading 556 yet, but I'll definitely be saving your results for possible future reference. Thanks and welcome to the site You might find that you'll get some pretty detailed responses if you start a fresh thread since this one has been open for a while.

Quote:
1.751 is fine. You could probably get away with 1.755. If your close to 1.760, trim. Personally, I trim anytime its over 1.755. Anything under I don't bother to trim.

By the way I use only winchester or LC brass for accurate and high quality reloaded rounds. I use whatever I can get...WCC, PPU, Rem R&P (dont know what that is) for plinking.
@brokenanew - What do you do with cases that are already shorter than 1.750? Trash?

Quote:
Just a "for what it's worth": I always size new brass, just as if it were fired. measure and trim new brass also, if needed. just saying.
@FM12 - Thanks for your input. I'll definitely be sure to go through the same steps

Quote:
Great information in this thread, thanks for everyone who took the time to reply.

Great reading.
@p loader - I agree, everyone has been such a huge help. I didn't imagine I would get this much input in such a short period of time.
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Old October 8, 2012, 06:44 PM   #47
MrMitus
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New brass length

So I picked up a bag of 100 .223 brass (Federal) from the reloading shop. This was the only brand they currently had in stock for .223 . I measured one of the unsized cases and found that it is already shorter than 1.750 . I believe they were close to 1.740 . Everything I've read or been told so far prepared me for trimming down to 1.750 and I've even been tossing out the rounds that were smaller than that. Can some one fill me in on the what I'm obviously not informed about...

What is the minimum acceptable overall length of a sized case?

I understand that I want uniformity when producing my rounds. So assuming it is acceptable to use cases shorter than 1.750 (which it must be if they sell them brand new like this), I must work to have them all the same length?

Any input or clarification would be much appreciated.
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Old October 9, 2012, 07:41 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by MrMitus
So I picked up a bag of 100 .223 brass (Federal) from the reloading shop. This was the only brand they currently had in stock for .223 . I measured one of the unsized cases and found that it is already shorter than 1.750 . I believe they were close to 1.740 . Everything I've read or been told so far prepared me for trimming down to 1.750 and I've even been tossing out the rounds that were smaller than that. Can some one fill me in on the what I'm obviously not informed about...

What is the minimum acceptable overall length of a sized case?
I had the same issue with some Federal Brass I purchased. They varied wildly in case length. I ended up trimming most of them to 1.745 just to have some consistency and fired 'em up with no issues. I quit buying Federal brass, though.

As far as your question, 1.730 - .1760 is SAAMI specs for 2.23, so you're fine if you have cases that short.

SAAMI .223 Specs

Last edited by stnosc; October 11, 2012 at 06:58 AM.
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Old October 9, 2012, 10:13 PM   #49
MrMitus
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Quote:
I had the same issue with some Federal Brass I purchased. They varied wildly in case length. I ended up trimming most of them to 1.745 just to have some consistency and fired 'em up with no issues. I quit buying Federal brass, though.

As far as your question, 1.740 - .1760 is SAAMI specs for 2.23, so you're fine if you have cases that short.
@stnosc - Thank you
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