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Old October 6, 2012, 09:55 PM   #2651
Gary L. Griffiths
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Quote:
Despite the fact that Mexico has already arrested two alleged suspects, it is now believed that there were, in fact, NO "suspects" involved.
The obliging Mexicans apparently rounded up the requisite number of the "usual suspects."
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Old October 7, 2012, 07:56 AM   #2652
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Latest Border patrol shooting - friendly fire?
Sure does appear that way. Way i read it Ivie may have fired on his fellow agents.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...tory?track=rss

Quote:
Three agents fired unknowingly at each other after they separately responded to a tripped sensor in a rugged canyon in southeastern Arizona, Cochise County Acting Sheriff Rod Rothrock told The Times on Saturday.

FBI officials said a preliminary investigation showed that Border Agent Nicholas J. Ivie died in a "friendly fire" shooting that only involved the agents. Another agent was shot in the buttocks and ankle and is recovering at home. A third agent was not injured. Authorities have not released their names.

Ivie, a six-year agent, was shot while he and two other colleagues on horseback patrolled an area a few miles north of the U.S.-Mexico border, between Naco and Bisbee. The area is considered a corridor for drug and human smuggling near the Mule Mountains.

The three agents had communicated with each other and knew they were all in the area. Ivie was about 20 yards away from the other two agents and “interpreted defensive postures from the other as aggressive postures,” Rothrock told the Arizona Daily Star, an account he confirmed with The Times.
George McCubbin, union president of the National Border Patrol Council, elaborated. He said the agents converged from opposite directions, descending down hills into a relatively level area thick with brush.
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Old October 7, 2012, 07:11 PM   #2653
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An interesting way to look at this is what if this had been reversed? What if Mexico had initiated a identical operation to this from its side and we had the effects Mexico got....
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Old October 10, 2012, 11:32 AM   #2654
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This thread is about the ATF's Fast & Furious operation and issues directly related to it. It is not about border fences or immigration policy. Posts on those matters will be treated as being off-topic.
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Old October 10, 2012, 11:36 AM   #2655
jimpeel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGutzman View Post
An interesting way to look at this is what if this had been reversed? What if Mexico had initiated a identical operation to this from its side and we had the effects Mexico got....
We would be calling it exactly what it is -- an act of war against a sovereign nation.
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Old October 10, 2012, 11:53 AM   #2656
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We will see what happens now that this guy is back in the U.S. Hopefully, Issa will jump on him like a duck on a June Bug.

SOURCE

Quote:
Kevin O’Reilly, Uncooperative Witness on Fast and Furious, Returns to U.S. From Sudden Posting to Iraq
By Fred Lucas
October 10, 2012

(CNSNews.com) – Obama administration employee Kevin O’Reilly -- who congressional investigators called “the link connecting the White House to the [Fast and Furious] scandal” -- is back in the United States now after abruptly leaving his White House job to work in Iraq in 2011 after emails concerning him and Fast and Furious had surfaced.

<MORE>
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old October 10, 2012, 04:57 PM   #2657
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....And still, no one has been arrested for selling, or directing the sale of, guns to known straw purchasers!
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Old October 10, 2012, 05:00 PM   #2658
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"When the President does it, that means it is not illegal." --Richard Nixon, 1977
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Old October 10, 2012, 08:34 PM   #2659
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....And still, no one has been arrested for selling, or directing the sale of, guns to known straw purchasers!
Exactly! If they claim protection of it being a LEO operation, then they should have to prove they were responsibly tracking the firearms after they went across the border. They should be held accountable for a full inventory accounting of each firearm.

If they basically let them walk unaccounted for then that should be a felony, not some admin boo-boo.

Get some of the ATF guys going off to prison and I bet we would hear more singing all up the chain of command.
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Old October 10, 2012, 09:16 PM   #2660
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quoting from another post NWPilgrim offered:

"....And still, no one has been arrested for selling, or directing the sale of, guns to known straw purchasers! "

He followed with the following: "Exactly! If they claim protection of it being a LEO operation, then they should have to prove they were responsibly tracking the firearms after they went across the border. They should be held accountable for a full inventory accounting of each firearm."

"If they basically let them walk unaccounted for then that should be a felony, not some admin boo-boo.

Get some of the ATF guys going off to prison and I bet we would hear more singing all up the chain of command. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re his closing, the bit about ATF guys going to prison, while it might be all to appropriate, I suspect that given administration /political CYAing, it is something that is unlikely to happen, barraing the unusual.
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Old October 12, 2012, 08:37 AM   #2661
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Vince Cefalu. BATFE whistleblower, has been fired.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...whistleblower/
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Old October 12, 2012, 01:40 PM   #2662
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Vince Cefalu. BATFE whistleblower, has been fired.
Fired in a Denny's parking lot, no less. You certainly can't accuse ATF of not being a class act.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...ys_parking_lot
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Old October 13, 2012, 12:56 PM   #2663
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Who was the incompetent person screwing up a simple video moment?
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Old October 13, 2012, 02:29 PM   #2664
alan
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Re posts 2659 and 2650 and accompanying news items, dealing with the "termination" of BATFE Whistleblower Vince Cefalu, the following might interest some here.

Yesterday afternoon, on NPR, I heard a segment discussing whistle blowing, the people who engage in this activity both in private industry and in government, government employees blowing the whistle, and what all to often happens with government employees, who blow the whistle on legitimate problems.

They, the whistle blowers often end up being fired, the people responsible for the problems the whistle blowers exposed are often promoted, action against responsible individuals is almost never brought, which is to say that while criminal prosecution of responsible parties is appropriate, it almost never happens, while the person who brought the problem to the attention of "government" is essentially punished, the fact that they might receive a monetary award being beside the point, for they are often renderedeed "unemployable", and might well end up never working in their field again.

The discussion included, as I recall, attorneys from both sides. Seems as if the fate of Mr.Cefalu might go quite some distance in support of the contentions inherent in the segment. Unfortunately, I do not recall which program this segment was part of, it was however broadcast yesterday.
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Old October 13, 2012, 11:16 PM   #2665
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A search at http://www.npr.org turned up nothing for yesterday with the word "whistleblower", "whistle-blower", or "whistle blower" in it. The search was narrowed to the last seven days for all programs and all topics.

The only thing which popped up was the following but that was on 10/10/12.

Soldiers Claim Illness After Guarding KBR In Iraq
October 10, 2012 ... oilfield plant was riddled with a well-known toxin but ignored the risk to soldiers while hurrying the project along, firing a whistleblower and covering ... By The Associated Press

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=162671029
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old October 14, 2012, 09:01 AM   #2666
alan
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jimpeel :

Sorry to have sent you down a blind alley. Having seen your response, I got curious, I must be getting old and feeble minded, managed to jog my "memory" a bit, finding the following.

Dater of broadcast: 11 October
Show carrying the item: Diane Rehm
There is an audio and I assume text version at the Diane Rehm site. The audio runs a bit over 51 minutes.
The web site includes comments from listeners, which might or might not be of interest.

Once again, my apologies for the misdirection.
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Old October 14, 2012, 09:59 PM   #2667
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I know a lady who brought and won an EEO suit against a supervisor for racial/sexual discrimination in a federal agency. The lady was sidelined and isolated, the perp sent to another office and later promoted twice.

This travesty occurred with people dealing security matters and at the managerial level.

The feds, and other major bureaucratic entities, sometimes apparently would rather fail at their supposed mission than accept embarrassment.

No wonder people like Newell survive and get well past their level of incompetence and venality.
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Old October 15, 2012, 12:01 AM   #2668
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Thanks, Alan. Was able to find THIS.

Wow! I thought she got full use of her voice back after she lost it several years back. She sounds like she has had a stroke now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...y/rehm0823.htm
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old October 15, 2012, 06:14 PM   #2669
alan
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jimpel:

Re my perhaps failing, certainly less reliable than it once was memory, there is a similarity between my "problem", and Dianes voice situation. We all get old, I didn't use to have gray hair, though I have it these days. Additionally, as has been observed, "getting old ain't for sissies".

Anyhow, getting back to F & F, and things more closely related thereto, the following headline raises interesting questions. "Uncooperative Witness on Fast and Furious, Returns to U.S. From Sudden Posting to Iraq". One wonders as to exactly what the fellow might have to say.
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Old October 16, 2012, 01:14 AM   #2670
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I'm sure that the curiosity of many is piqued at that prospect. He knows enough that he is a danger to the administration. Hopefully, he comes clean and we all will revel in his knowledge.

Hopefully, Issa is working on this as we speak.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old October 16, 2012, 07:20 AM   #2671
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Justice Department seeks dismissal of Fast and Furious lawsuit

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...est=latestnews


Quote:
In its court papers, the Justice Department says the Constitution does not permit the courts to resolve the political dispute between the executive branch and the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee that is seeking the records
I've never seen such audacity. These guys thumb their noses at the Congress of the United States, the president claims Executive Privledge, then they tell the courts to stay out of it, claiming the courts have no business getting involved in the issue.

Hopefully the court can recognize a trick bag when it sees it.
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Old October 16, 2012, 08:46 AM   #2672
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Here's the part that annoys me...

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz29T3PGB33

Quote:
In its court papers, the Justice Department says the Constitution does not permit the courts to resolve the political dispute between the executive branch and the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee that is seeking the records. The political branches have a long history of resolving disputes over congressional requests without judicial intervention, the court filing said.

If the lawsuit is allowed to go forward, "countless other suits by Congress are sure to follow, given the volume of document requests issued by the dozens of congressional committees that perform oversight functions," the Justice Department's court filing stated. "This case thus illustrates vividly why the judiciary must defer to the time-tested political process for resolution of such disputes."
Given that Congress has oversight duties, what good is their subpoena power if there is no force of law to back it up? If the court agrees with the administration, it would seem that future administrations could simply refuse to turn over documents and/or refuse subpoenas with near impunity. Congress would then be left with only one real alternative, which would be to revoke any monies for the agency(s), which is unlikely, especially if the administration's party holds the majority of Congress.

If memory serves, the courts settled an executive privilege dispute before, during the Nixon administration. That was regarding an audio tape (with the infamous 18-minute gap).
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Old October 16, 2012, 08:58 AM   #2673
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Under the "political question" doctrine, courts actually do not resolve, well, political questions. The issue, then, is whether this particular dispute constitutes a political question. Clearly, the administration hopes to convince the court that it does.
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Old October 16, 2012, 01:26 PM   #2674
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An agents death in my mind would seem to make it more than some political theatre, not to mention all the dead Mexican nationals this administration created with this ploy.

If this was done under any other name than the government we would be calling it organized crime.
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Old October 16, 2012, 05:20 PM   #2675
alan
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jimpeel wrote in part:

Thanks, Alan. Was able to find THIS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe your "THIS" was the DR segment I finally referenced. Otherwise, re the guy thaat suddenly went overseaas, and has now aseemikngly returned, it will be interesting to note whether or not he developes "a failure of memory".


Luger_carbine wrote, as the close of his post:

Hopefully the court can recognize a trick bag when it sees it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would think that that depends on whether or not the court has the guts to really look at what is being waved in it's face, which it might or might not have. I guess we shall see.
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