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Old October 6, 2012, 02:10 AM   #51
Constantine
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Very nice! However, don't hold my feet to the fire. I said "I think I read somewhere" might have been drunk o.O maybe it was .40? Idk

Lol anyways. Hear hear to the forum of gentlemen!

SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / Colt 70 Series / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15

sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
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Old October 6, 2012, 05:47 AM   #52
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If your point was so clear, then there'd be no need for you to edit what you said. "Walk it back", edit it to your heart's content- it makes no difference to me. My posts will reflect the original content of our discussion in any event.
Not to dredge this part of the thread back up, but, I believe I "got" what he meant right off the bat.
(Mind you - I'm a big fan of sectional density being a vastly underrated measure of a bullet's overall potential)

IMHO - how I read the initial post is:
The actual diameter of the bullet - .355" vs .451" isn't a critical number.
A .355" diameter 147 gr. slug and a .451" diameter 230 gr. slug are different in diameter,,,but,,
They are in S/D - 0.167 and 0.162 - for all intents and purposes exactly the same.
W/no change in frontal area - expansion - and similar velocites (W/in a couple hundred fps of each other) - and at close (self defense) range, you can expect very similar penetration.

The "wild card" here being,,,a change in frontal area - expansion - which changes the S/D.

If both rounds expand to the same size in frontal area - say .60" - then the heavier - yet same diameter - .45 round will have a "new" S/D of 0.091 vs the lighter 9mm's "new" S/D of 0.058 - nearly double..

W/that in mind....the actual initial diameter be it 9mm or 11.5mm can be dismissed because, it's going to change as the bullet goes into it's target 7 as the bullet expands.
What is a critical figure is the S/D of the bullet & how well that S/D is controlled via controlled expansion..
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Old October 6, 2012, 06:59 AM   #53
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Orion, Post 47

Mentioned the epoxy filled, FMJ, at high pistol velocity.

Those bullets aren't a new idea. A few decades ago, they were highly touted as being the cat's whiskers for issue to defensive forces where limited penetration was required. Protection of nuclear facilities and other such places were, supposedly, what was on the collective Regulatory mind.

That idea got some traction 'till it was pointed out that, if the opposing attacking forces were to wear defensive gear vests, they were immune to defensive fire and were, in essence, home free.

It was a short lived idea that refuses to go away. Katie Curic once asked in an interview of s Sky Marshal why he didn't shoot to wound.

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Old October 6, 2012, 08:11 AM   #54
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Quote:
The .45 extra power does not outweigh the extra capacity the 9mm has to offer.
Once again, this is an opinion, presented as a fact. Calling your dog a duck does not allow the dog to fly, and if you invite some friends to dinner and serve them your "duck" they are unlikely to be impressed...and they probably won't show up the next time they are invited, either.
Your counter statement sure left me scratching my head. Is that what the OP was really trying to say with his statement?

I don't think, in an age where modern handgun bullets are designed to perform very much alike, that magazine capacity can be discounted out of hand as mere "opinion". I think that, with modern bullet design and performance being so similar, the choice of magazine capacity most certainly can outweigh bullet caliber choice.

The obvious fact will remain that shot for shot, a person shooting a 1911 with an 8 round magazine will be left standing there holding an empty gun while the person shooting a Glock 17 will continuing shooting with a magazine that is still half full.
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Old October 6, 2012, 08:39 AM   #55
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The obvious fact will remain that shot for shot, a person shooting a 1911 with an 8 round magazine will be left standing there holding an empty gun while the person shooting a Glock 17 will continuing shooting with a magazine that is still half full.
If someone w/a Glcok 17 is shooting at me & I'm holding a 1911, I better not be standing there holding an empty gun while they continue to shoot.
If that happens,, then I've screwed up big time.....another 2 or 20 rounds ain't going to make beans worth of difference.
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Old October 6, 2012, 08:47 AM   #56
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2 115 gr bullets equals 1 230gr KINDA.
Of course that only works if you have the time to shoot everything twice.
All LE and SD ammo is designed around the same FBI gel tests. Find some that works in your gun and practice.
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Old October 6, 2012, 09:08 AM   #57
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If someone w/a Glcok 17 is shooting at me & I'm holding a 1911, I better not be standing there holding an empty gun while they continue to shoot.
If that happens,, then I've screwed up big time.....another 2 or 20 rounds ain't going to make beans worth of difference.
Thats true to an extent . I'm sure there are many ways one could exaust a few rounds of ammo and still need many more . I'm sure there are people out there that have seen . read about or have been in a situatoin that required one to have more then 8 rounds before having to take the time to reload

Example . What about cover fire . If what ever your shooting at is behind cover and you just need them to stay down and not be returning fire so your team can advance . I sure would want my gun to still have some ammo left after 7 or 8 shots .

There has to be a reason why the military uses mags that hold large amounts of ammo . I'm sure it's not just so they have a place to keep it .
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Last edited by Metal god; October 6, 2012 at 09:17 AM.
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Old October 6, 2012, 09:11 AM   #58
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There probably isnt any 9mm that can equal a 45 made to the same standard.
.357Sig & .40S&W yes... 9mm no.

The picture below visually spells out why our Secret Service uses 357Sig and many LEO deparments use .40s&w, those two provide same or better wounding as the 45 with better capacity, which definitely matters for those of us carrying smaller single stacks or sub-compact doubles.

I cant imagine a group who places more emphasis on stopping an immediate threat than the Secret Service, and its also reasonable to assume they've done their homework on the ballistics of each round.
They picked the .357Sig years ago.

I think 9mm and 45 each have too many compromises in either wounding or capacity.
The .40 is my favorite overall round - Comparatively few compromises, good capacity, good wound channel results, reasonable recoil considering those results, and its priced right.

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Old October 6, 2012, 09:38 AM   #59
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K=1/2mass x velocity squared. So velocity is very important. That fact alone is why we're interested in the little zippers at all. Now take a somewhat larger bullet, and get it almost as fast, and the permanent wound channel really takes off. I like a .45 185gr XTP round clocking about 1000 fps, and those .40S&W loads are good as well. 9mm is way easier to shoot and master, and it's big brother the .357 Sig is it's ultimate expression.
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Old October 6, 2012, 11:34 AM   #60
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Capacity means quite a bit actually. If it didnt, why do all military's and lea's strive for it? And another thing, in real life situations, bad guys don't just stand there for you to slowly squeeze accurate shots at. They run, duck, take cover and shoot back. I can easily see how the 8 rounds of a 1911 can run out quick in a real life gun battle. Also, what about multiple atrackers? A Springfield XDm holds 19 plus 1 fellas. I'll keep my "weak" 9mm
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Old October 6, 2012, 12:06 PM   #61
481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal:
Not to dredge this part of the thread back up, but, I believe I "got" what he meant right off the bat.
(Mind you - I'm a big fan of sectional density being a vastly underrated measure of a bullet's overall potential)
No problem, I've no need to revisit it and have moved on.

I also believe that sectional density is an under-rated attribute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal:
IMHO - how I read the initial post is:
The actual diameter of the bullet - .355" vs .451" isn't a critical number.
A .355" diameter 147 gr. slug and a .451" diameter 230 gr. slug are different in diameter,,,but,,
They are in S/D - 0.167 and 0.162 - for all intents and purposes exactly the same.
W/no change in frontal area - expansion - and similar velocites (W/in a couple hundred fps of each other) - and at close (self defense) range, you can expect very similar penetration.

The "wild card" here being,,,a change in frontal area - expansion - which changes the S/D.

If both rounds expand to the same size in frontal area - say .60" - then the heavier - yet same diameter - .45 round will have a "new" S/D of 0.091 vs the lighter 9mm's "new" S/D of 0.058 - nearly double..

W/that in mind....the actual initial diameter be it 9mm or 11.5mm can be dismissed because, it's going to change as the bullet goes into it's target 7 as the bullet expands.
What is a critical figure is the S/D of the bullet & how well that S/D is controlled via controlled expansion..
Well stated, but there was nothing (post #16 on page 1) that could be inferred in that way from what was posted.

Your concise observations match what I have read (namely MacPherson, Roberts, Schwartz, Fackler, etc.), in that "heavy-for-caliber" bullets have the ability/advantage of being able to supply more material to the process of expansion ensuring a greater sectional density at the end of that process than for lighter bullets that expand to the same diameter.
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Last edited by 481; October 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM.
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Old October 6, 2012, 12:20 PM   #62
481
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Originally Posted by saltydog:
Mentioned the epoxy filled, FMJ, at high pistol velocity.

Those bullets aren't a new idea. A few decades ago, they were highly touted as being the cat's whiskers for issue to defensive forces where limited penetration was required. Protection of nuclear facilities and other such places were, supposedly, what was on the collective Regulatory mind.

That idea got some traction 'till it was pointed out that, if the opposing attacking forces were to wear defensive gear vests, they were immune to defensive fire and were, in essence, home free.

It was a short lived idea that refuses to go away. Katie Curic once asked in an interview of s Sky Marshal why he didn't shoot to wound.

salty
salty,

IIRC, didn't MagSafe have a similar offering in the mid- to late-1990s? Fast Hardball, I think?

If memory serves, it was a FMJTC (or FMJFP if you want) gilding metal jacket filled with a high strength epoxy and enough small shot to bring it to up to the desired weight and offered in various calibers and driven at high velocity.

I seem to recall a .45ACP 70+ gr. FMJTC being driven at something like 2000 or 2100 fps.
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Old October 6, 2012, 01:07 PM   #63
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Yep , Masafe has a 45 acp bullet called Swat . 68gr 2,260 fps with 771 ft/lbs of muzzle energy

RBCD has a 45acp bullet called TFSP 90gr 2,036 fps with 828 ft/lbs of muzzle energy .
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Old October 7, 2012, 01:30 AM   #64
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I CCW an LC9 with Win Ranger-TS 147HP. That I can afford to practice with and Know that within 30 feet a head shot is doable.
With a 45 I would not practice as often and have to count more on bullet size and less on shot placement. For me not a good trade off.
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Old October 7, 2012, 09:09 AM   #65
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^Just a couple thoughts...
I dont think I'd be aiming for the head at 30 feet.
At 30 feet the attacker needs to have a gun and intent on using it.
A guy at 30 feet ranting and swinging a bat around isnt enough to shoot unless he closes the gap.

Last edited by Dashunde; October 8, 2012 at 08:53 AM.
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