The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 4, 2012, 09:34 PM   #26
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 5,333
Don't believe in 'stopping power ' ?
My early tests using tough woodchucks as a test showed an important difference between 9mm and 45acp. This was before the fancy JHPs.
A hit with a 9mm that wasn't an immediate kill --the chuck would RUN back to his hole .
Same hit witha 45acp -- the chuck would WALK back to his hole !
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver !
mete is offline  
Old October 4, 2012, 11:10 PM   #27
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRH970:
You don't want to bring up the Jello Junkie vs. Morgue Monster debate again?? That horse isn't dead yet....we just saw an ear twitch.
That's funny.

Wait! Lemme get my whip!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SRH970:
Marshall, Sanow, et. al.= Morgue Monster

Fackler, van Maanan, et. al. = Jello Junkies. Dr. Fackler is the Original Jello Junkie and also the source for the FBI 12" rule.
Yeah, I remember reading the gun rags back in the late 80's (when I was a brand-new cop) and laughing at the name-calling that went on.

M&S had just published their first "study" and they would've gotten away with it had they not pushed their luck and published further "studies". (it's hard, but not impossible to do a statistical analysis like those I've cited above without precursors)

I have often wondered how (let alone "if") someone would go about attempting to debunk the Fackler/Roberts/IWBA/FBI construct given that there's a ton of concrete data (gelatin tests) not to mention heavily researched bullet penetration models like those proposed by MacPherson and Schwartz.
__________________
My favorite "gun" book -

QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION
481 is offline  
Old October 4, 2012, 11:12 PM   #28
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo:
It's not all about the hardware.
You are right. There is sooooo much more.
__________________
My favorite "gun" book -

QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION
481 is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:54 AM   #29
Yankee Doodle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Location: NY state
Posts: 570
In my opinion, based upon years of training, is that the one shot stop concept is complete BS, compounded by sheer stupidity.
If your life is in imminent danger, only a fool would rely on one shot to end the threat. If you are forced to resort to deadly force, the only object is to stop the attacker from continuing the action that is a threat to your life. In order to do this, you will be forced to continue to fire until the threat has ended. If you are justified to fire one shot, you are just as justified to fire as many as needed to end the threat.
We were taught to continue firing until the threat has ended. Subject on the ground and unable to continue to threaten your life, or running for the hills. I, for one, would never count on one shot to accomplish this.
Therefore, I think that a "one magazine or cylinder" stop, is much more realistic.
Just my opinion, and you have paid me exactly what it's worth.
__________________
God Bless America
Y.D.
Yankee Doodle is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 08:52 AM   #30
Snort
Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2012
Posts: 26
I've always found this interesting:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Guy just analyzed every shooting case he could find, and compiled the data. Helped me let go of the notion that I "needed" to carry a .45. YMMV.
Snort is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 01:47 PM   #31
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,176
Quote:
People get hung up on the numbers and formulas on the box, but they never ask whether or not the load feeds well in a given gun, how much muzzle flash it has, or how consistently it groups. If they spent as much time shooting as they did obsessing over numbers, cartridge selection probably wouldn't matter as much.

Hey...I know you didn't mean me. Just for the record, I've been shooting and training every week for the past 5 years and shooting since I was 12 at least once every 2 weeks.

Just saying...
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 01:56 PM   #32
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,176
BTW Snort, good link. Reading it as I type this.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 02:31 PM   #33
Malamute
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Location: Rocky Mts
Posts: 820
Quote:
In my opinion, based upon years of training, is that the one shot stop concept is complete BS, compounded by sheer stupidity.
If your life is in imminent danger, only a fool would rely on one shot to end the threat. If you are forced to resort to deadly force, the only object is to stop the attacker from continuing the action that is a threat to your life. In order to do this, you will be forced to continue to fire until the threat has ended...

Uh, I don't think the point of any "one shot stop" discussion was to shoot once, then stop. I've never ever heard that idea expressed in any way. I believe the idea of the concept was trying to figure out what was most likely to work fastest, and with fewest shots required to get the job done. A 22 with solids may indeed stop an attack if fired enough times, but it may not do it quickly enough to satisfy most of us.

From shooting game, I have a hard time putting much faith in any of the "tests" if any RN solid bullet is anywhere near close to a functioning hollow point or flat point (Keith type) bullet in effectiveness.

Regarding the comment above about shooting critters with 9's and 45 autos, that about reflects my experience. RN full jacket loads are pretty pathetic when trying to kill game, or keep them from wandering off after shooting them. After using 45 auto ball ammo on various small game, I had to conclude people were much less tough than the avarage jack rabbit or coyote. I shot one pack rat 3 or 4 times with 9mm ball before it slowly sucumbed. A single 22 HP would have been pretty much instantly fatal, as they generally are with jacks, and marmots. Large flat points, and hollow points that work make wicked wounds in game, and anchor them much faster than any type of round nose bullet. Larger animals behave differently than smaller ones when shot, but shoot enough game with different things, and you start to look at things a bit differently than most seem to.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Malamute is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:40 PM   #34
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
So, I'll bite: who in law enforcement was still carrying guns in .357 and .45 when the studies were done? Certainly not the average beat cop. I'll lay odds the guys carrying those guns (and involved in those shootings) were serious gunfighters. They put in the time and training, and they took the gun seriously instead of treating it like a heavy burden to lug along.

I carried a 45 from 1979 to 1982 and a 357 Magnum on duty until 1996 and off duty until 2003. Now I carry a 357 Sig.

Quote:
In my opinion, based upon years of training, is that the one shot stop concept is complete BS, compounded by sheer stupidity.
If your life is in imminent danger, only a fool would rely on one shot to end the threat. If you are forced to resort to deadly force, the only object is to stop the attacker from continuing the action that is a threat to your life. In order to do this, you will be forced to continue to fire until the threat has ended.
The one stop shot was only meant as a metric of measurement. I do not recall anyone ever saying to just shoot once.

I will carry the most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. Handguns are enough of a compromise all by themselves.

Come on.... Can't we beat that dead horse......
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 12:37 AM   #35
RBid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2012
Posts: 1,054
"I will carry the most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. Handguns are enough of a compromise all by themselves."

Well said.

That's a wrap, folks.
__________________
Currently Own: Beretta PX4 9mm, Glock 23 (Gen 4), Glock 19 (Gen 4) x2
RBid is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 02:12 AM   #36
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBid View Post
"I will carry the most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. Handguns are enough of a compromise all by themselves."

Well said.

That's a wrap, folks.
+1


Bring the lock and chain!

SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / Colt 70 Series / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15

sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
Constantine is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 02:26 AM   #37
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snort
I've always found this interesting:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Guy just analyzed every shooting case he could find, and compiled the data. Helped me let go of the notion that I "needed" to carry a .45....
That's an interesting study, but you might want to re-think putting aside your .45.

The following data from that study is in my view the most interesting:
The assailants not incapacitated are the ones who can still hurt you.

And as Ellifritz says (emphasis added):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Ellifritz

...Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things...

In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this....
We know that many, perhaps even most, aggressors stop when shot because they choose to. They effectively give up. The real question is what will force the person physiologically to stop if he doesn't give up. And that will usually be one of the more potent cartridges.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 02:52 AM   #38
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,176
Quote:
The real question is what will force the person physiologically to stop if he doesn't give up. And that will usually be one of the more potent cartridges.

Which would be 9mm, 357SIG, .380ACP, .38special, .357magnum, .40S&W, 10mm, .45ACP...and others along those lines. Correct? Of course with modern hollow points.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 03:16 AM   #39
Jeff #111
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2001
Location: Idaho
Posts: 906
boy this thread takes me back some twenty-two years. I still have some of the old issues from the late eighties and early nineties. This debate was in full bloom back then. Back then I believed in the One Shot Stop findings. I considered them to be gospel. But I was twenty also. Times (and people) change.
__________________
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't. Ben Franklin
Jeff #111 is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 03:19 AM   #40
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,176
Jeff! So being there then and now, what's your take on it personally?

What do you carry and shoot best?
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 03:50 AM   #41
Snort
Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2012
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
That's an interesting study, but you might want to re-think putting aside your .45.
It certainly does confirm that larger bullets generally have a larger chance of creating a one-shot stop.

However, my biggest takeaway from it was the following data:

Average # of Rounds to Incapacitation:
2.45 - 9mm
2.36 - .40 S&W
2.08 - .45 ACP

In other words, chances are good that you'll need to shoot at least twice with all of those calibers. The question for me becomes, "Which of those rounds do I shoot best when I'm shooting fast?"
Snort is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 08:16 AM   #42
Amsdorf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri
Posts: 849
You can read this kind of stuff until you want to poke your eyeballs out...

Here's the bottom line:

It's not the ammo, it's the accuracy.

A well placed .22LR at close range will kill somebody.
A 44 magnum at close range that misses will only make a very loud noise.

Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement.

Get good with whatever ammo load you are carrying and you'll be way ahead of anyone who obsesses over ammo more than they do over practicing to be accurate under stress.
Amsdorf is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 08:23 AM   #43
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,176
True -____-

Sad sad sad....



http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...g-someone?lite


SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / Colt 70 Series / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15

sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
Constantine is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 09:56 AM   #44
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsdorf
...A well placed .22LR at close range will kill somebody....
Yes, but will it reliably stop someone who wants to do you harm? That's your real goal.

In fact, sometimes a well placed .357 Magnum isn't enough. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty.

She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:
Quote:
... The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsdorf
...It's not the ammo, it's the accuracy...
Wrong. It's both.

Except for psychological stops (I don't like getting shot so I'll stop) alluded to in post 37, to physiologically stop someone requires tissue damage: significant trauma to the CNS, the breaking of major skeletal support structures or incapacitation from significant blood loss.

At the velocity/energy levels of most handgun cartridges, any tissue damage will come only from direct contact between the bullet and the tissue. So a handgun bullet passing through a blood rich organ will damage the tissue it actually touches as it passes through, and a larger caliber bullet penetrating more deeply will damage more tissue than a smaller caliber bullet penetrating less -- thus causing more rapid blood loss.

So yes, shot placement is important, but a small caliber bullet not penetrating very deeply will, even when well placed, still be producing only a modest amount of tissue damage compared with something larger. So --
  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  • There are no magic bullets.
Everything has a price. The increased convenience of a lighter, smaller caliber, less powerful handgun for self defense comes at the cost of less reliable efficacy. And the more reliable efficacy of a large caliber, more powerful handgun for self defense comes at the cost of less convenience.

One can make his choice, decide what's important to him and what he's willing to give up to get. But one should not delude himself into believing that a .22 will be just as good as a .45 or even 9mm for self defense.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 10:18 AM   #45
Snort
Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2012
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Everything has a price. The increased convenience of a lighter, smaller caliber, less powerful handgun for self defense comes at the cost of less reliable efficacy. And the more reliable efficacy of a large caliber, more powerful handgun for self defense comes at the cost of less convenience.
Is it real-world or "practical" efficacy, though? 9x19 JHP has come a long, long way; other than something like, say, shooting through a windshield (and even the bonded stuff does that well), I just haven't seen any terminal ballistics data that convinces me a .45 provides enough appreciable difference to make stepping up to it a requirement.

Beyond that, I can understand why high-speed low-drag types employ the .45, but for the low-speed high-drag shooter like myself, who doesn't reload, who, while not having to work a corner to afford a range trip or anything, does appreciate that 9mm's cheaper to practice with than .45, and who simply shoots 9mm quickly better than he does .45, I just don't see the upside.
Snort is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 11:08 AM   #46
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,690
Most service calibers are going to perform to nearly the same standard. High energy rounds such as the 10mm, 357 Sig and the various magnums "may" give you a significant advantage but may not depending one your proficiency with them.

The real answer is if you want to carry a 9mm carry a 9mm, but master the weapon. You must be able to run it without conscious thought. You must be able to make decisive hits while moving off the X. It takes training and practice to do that.

I have 3 Glocks that I use, 2 came in 40 and one in 357 Sig. I convert the 27 and 23 to 9mm and 357 Sig as it suits my needs and carry the 357 Sig. For a gun I am going to want in a fight its a hi-cap. You may feel fine with 5, but not I.

Your tactics and proficiency are more important than caliber or platform. Every situation is different, that is another compromise and your carry system must encompass as many variables as possible to ensure success.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 7, 2012, 10:49 AM   #47
Winchester_73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,859
Quote:
9x19 JHP has come a long, long way; other than something like, say, shooting through a windshield (and even the bonded stuff does that well), I just haven't seen any terminal ballistics data that convinces me a .45 provides enough appreciable difference to make stepping up to it a requirement.
I agree. I carry a 9mm or a 380. I have respect for the 45, but I also don't think it is as great IN COMPARISON to a 9mm as people would have you believe. Remember, you don't have to carry FMJs and you shouldn't and that is where IMO much of the "the 45 is much better" talk comes from. I feel safe with a 15 rd gun with 9mm +P rounds.

Quote:
A well placed .22LR at close range will kill somebody.
A 44 magnum at close range that misses will only make a very loud noise.
Amsdorf, I know you meant this only as an example. This is not directed at you. I want to bring up something here though regarding this example. I personally think the 44 magnum to be a poor SD choice for many reasons. One would think on the surface that the 44 magnum would be a better man stopper (assuming you hit the person) than say a 357 mag. I've always said that I don't believe that, because frankly, the 44 mag is just too powerful. I am referring to the concept of terminal ballistics, where a human, does not have enough tissue, size, etc to use up very much of the 44 mag's energy (assuming the typical SD range). The 44 mag would be like the cliche hot knife through butter whereas a 357 for example, would use nearly all, if not all, of its energy, and would expand more IMO than a 44 mag on a person. The 44 mag would IMO over penetrate / slow to expand because of its greater energy whereas a 357 will expand more and penetrate less which makes it superior for this application, IMO. I know different loads could change this some but between the 44 mag not expanding as much because of its superior energy, and the possibility of great collateral damage, I think the 44 mag is somewhat a poor choice for SD. Notice that the chart (who knows how accurate it really is) Frank Ettin posted reflects a higher percentage of 1 shot stops with a 357 magnum than a 44 magnum. For all of its energy, the 44 magnum didn't do better than many common pistol cartridges which I think supports my assertion. These chart results could be potentially because people aren't as accurate with the 44 mag but there is no way to know now.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west
Winchester_73 is offline  
Old October 7, 2012, 12:30 PM   #48
Malamute
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Location: Rocky Mts
Posts: 820
The chart results can be off because we have no idea what type bullets were used in any of the loads also.


I agree with your point about loads. Use heavy, non, or slow expanding bullets in the 357, and lighter, faster, fast expanding bullets in the 44, and I'd bet that the results would be opposite what they now show. Bullet type makes a difference in the results.

The discussion is interesting, but for me, people are down the list for my use or reasons for having a pistol around. I'm out in the hills far more than in a town. I carry 44's and 45 Colts. I use the same guns wherever I go, just dont use the heavy loads when not in the hills. I've shot enough game with them I have a good idea how they'll work on whatever else I may need to shoot. May not be "best", but I'm used to them and shoot them well. I also really really dont like the muzzle blast of a 357.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Last edited by Malamute; October 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM.
Malamute is offline  
Old October 7, 2012, 01:19 PM   #49
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,019
Any info provided by Chuck Hawks should be taken with a grain of salt........
buck460XVR is offline  
Old October 7, 2012, 02:57 PM   #50
KenW.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2004
Posts: 141
There's a difference between stopping a threat, and killing. many times a threat will be stopped without a dead body hitting the ground. It is up to the determination of the threat.

Shot placement, multiple COM/CNS hits, and persistance are all preferred reguardless of caliber.

I like the 9mm with the capability of faster recoil recovery and follow-up shots. I think three 9mm holes in a target trump 2-45 holes in the same time frame.

Last edited by KenW.; October 7, 2012 at 03:11 PM.
KenW. is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14297 seconds with 9 queries