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Old September 30, 2012, 09:53 PM   #2626
Luger_carbine
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The Univision Special has started to generate more reports

ABC, basically re-reporting what Univision turned up:

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/...ry?id=17361775

Discrepancies in what Mexican authorities found and what has been reported to Congress.

It could be because of a simple error on the part of DOJ, it could be the Mexican authorities have newer data - I don't know but I do think it calls into question once again the veracity of DOJ and Eric Holder, which is good - it should be questioned, I think the mainstream media has given Holder a pass with all of his excuses, implausible answers and misdirection.

This second report by Univision addresses the other gun running operations that were in play, which the U.S. Media has largely ignored. it seems like if it isn't called Fast and Furious - it's not news worthy to the U.S. media, but Univision is going after those operations too and they linked a Texas gunrunning operation to the death of Jaime Zapata.

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/...ry?id=17352694

Last edited by Luger_carbine; September 30, 2012 at 10:07 PM.
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Old October 1, 2012, 05:17 PM   #2627
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It's curious, though, that Congressional investigators did not respond to Univision's request for serial numbers (per the ABC report). You would think they would respond in some manner, even if only to explain why they could not turn over the numbers. Instead, Univision had to compare using some deductive reasoning.

While the murder of a U.S. Border Agent with one of the weapons might conceivably have been unforeseeable, the use of guns to commit murder and other crimes in Mexico was almost inevitable. Obama apologizes for everything else. I can't see why he won't apologize to Mexico and the families of the victims. Oh, wait --- I do know why. It happened on his watch, not somebody else's.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:56 PM   #2628
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KyJim closed with the following:

"While the murder of a U.S. Border Agent with one of the weapons might conceivably have been unforeseeable, the use of guns to commit murder and other crimes in Mexico was almost inevitable. Obama apologizes for everything else. I can't see why he won't apologize to Mexico and the families of the victims. Oh, wait --- I do know why. It happened on his watch, not somebody else's. "
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I wonder as to how many of the citizenry happened to notice that detail, an interesting detail too.
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Old October 2, 2012, 06:29 AM   #2629
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Fast and Furious was the brainchild of the career bureaucrats of the BATFE; the same career bureaucrats who brought you Ruby Ridge and Waco. The career bureaucrats of the BATFE have been out of control for decades.

Think of operation Wide Receiver as a pilot run for operation Fast and Furious: Both operations were run by the same career bureaucrats of the BATFE. The career bureaucrats of the Phoenix office of the BATFE ginned up operation Fast and Furious and got it blessed by the US AG for AZ. It morphed into a monster involving other federal agencies.

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...nd-Furious.pdf

Quote:
Fast and Furious Conceived

The ATF Phoenix Field Division began Operation Fast and Furious in the fall of 2009 after suspicious weapons purchases led agents to the discovery of an apparent Phoenix-based arms trafficking syndicate. Having been encouraged to devise grander strategies to stop the transfers of weapons to Mexican drug cartels, the Phoenix based agents devised a strategy that went beyond simple arrests or weapons confiscations. They would allow the U.S.-based associates of
a Mexican drug cartel to continue acquiring firearms uninterrupted. In doing so, they hoped the weapons, after they were recovered at crime scenes in Mexico, could be traced and linked to cartel operatives including possible high-level financiers, suppliers, and possibly even king-pins.

The operation sought to achieve its lofty goals by focusing on the ringleader of the weapons smuggling syndicate they had identified: Manuel Celis-Acosta. Celis-Acosta was using a thenunknown number of straw-purchasers, including Jamie Avila, to purchase weapons.

In January 2010, ATF partnered with the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Arizona and applied to Justice Department headquarters in Washington for funding through the Department’s Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) program. As senior Justice Department officials in Washington felt the operation had great promise, it won approval and additional funding. Operation Fast and Furious was reorganized as a Strike Force including agents from ATF, FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) component of the Department of Homeland Security. ATF Agent John Dodson, who would later help blow the whistle on what occurred, was among the agents transferred to Phoenix to help with the operation as a result of the designation.

The Strike Force designation also meant that the U.S. Attorney’s Office – rather than ATF – would run Fast and Furious. At the time, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona was led by Dennis Burke, a new political appointee who had previously served as Chief of Staff to then Arizona Governor and now Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano. Earlier in his career, Burke had worked with former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel on gun control
legislation as a U.S. Senate staff member.
Does anyone else on this thread find it curious that after all the congressional noise, smoke and hoopla neither Grassley nor Issa have called for an overhaul of the BATFE?

Many years ago i had my very own experience with a career bureaucrat of the BATFE. In 1979 i was a US Army M/Sgt. in an EOD unit. The BATFE raided the home of a prominent physician and gun collector. A federal judge ordered the return of the doctors guns and ammo. Hundreds of thousands of rounds of expensive ammunition had disappeared along with some of the guns.

The scurillious SAC wanted tried to force me to write a statement for the federal judge saying the BATFE had turned that ammo over to my unit for disposal and that i had destroyed the ammo. Yeah, i was a naive Army troop but lying to federal judges was out of my league.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:01 AM   #2630
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And now we have another Border Patrol Agent, out of the Naco/Brian Terry Station, killed with a second Agent wounded.

A search for the shooters is now underway, but I'm guessing that they're already across the line.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:32 AM   #2631
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More from Univision: apparently Juarez cartel kingpin Jose Antonio Acosta Hernandez was found with Fast & Furious weapons when he was taken into custody.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:53 AM   #2632
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Quote:
The career bureaucrats of the Phoenix office of the BATFE ginned up operation Fast and Furious and got it blessed by the US AG for AZ.
I don't know if we'll ever find out the details of how the idea for F&F evolved and what it's true purpose was. But I am leaning toward the idea that Dennis Burke just got it in his head that having weapons from U.S. gun stores turn up at crime scenes was a potential gold mine for turning public opinion against the NRA, that it could be used to 1) create outrage over the violaence and loss of life, 2) could be blamed on lax gun control laws 3) when the NRA tried to argue against stricter gun control laws the issue could be used to paint the NRA has radical and insensitive 4) The groundswell of public opinion to enact stricter gun control could be used to push through nation gun control laws.

It all seems like pie in the sky wishfull thinking now - but I think it was this single minded focus that kept Dennis Burke from seeing the fatal falws in the plan.

I think it was Burke who came up with the idea and he had sympathetic ears at BATFE.
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Old October 2, 2012, 12:38 PM   #2633
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This clip has been on youtube for awhile. No one has posted it (I don't think) so I thought I would. Good video of Napalitano talking about "fortifying" Project Gunrunner which, we all know, became "Fast & Furious".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9sBB...layer_embedded
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Old October 2, 2012, 01:31 PM   #2634
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Dennis Burke was one of the movers and shakers behind the 1994 "assault weapons" ban.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obam...st-and-furious

Quote:
CNSNews.com) – Dennis K. Burke, who as a lawyer for the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee in the 1990s was a key player behind the enactment of the 1994 assault-weapons ban, and who then went on to become Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano’s chief of staff, and a contributor to Barack Obama’s 2008 presidential primary campaign, and then a member of Obama's transition team focusing on border-enforcement issues, ended up in the Obama administration as the U.S. attorney in Arizona responsible for overseeing Operation Fast and Furious.
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Old October 2, 2012, 03:43 PM   #2635
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Washington Post on fact checker about Obama on Univision.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e190_blog.html
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Old October 2, 2012, 05:19 PM   #2636
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Re the latest shooting incident involving Border Patrol agents, one dead, one wounded, the following question comes to miind. Do we here see the chickens of Operation Fast & Furious coming home to roost?
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Old October 2, 2012, 05:27 PM   #2637
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Obama appoints wife of Univision owner to UN diplomatic post

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/2...univision.html

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
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Old October 2, 2012, 08:21 PM   #2638
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I would hate to see the death of a law enforcement officer politicized.

The fact is that it is a dangerous area. The architects of Fast & Furious sought to politicize that fact and blame the area's problems on lax gun control laws. They sought to boolster evidence for their claims by practically giving weapons to the cartels.

But this latest weapon will either be from a gun walking operation which I think will cause pressure to build on President Obama to rescind his EP, or the weapon(s) won't be from the U.S. which will support the argument that the cartels weren't getting their weapons by purchasing them from U.S. gun stores - they have the ability to procure weapons more easily elsewhere.
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Old October 2, 2012, 10:59 PM   #2639
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Luger_carbine wrote:

"I would hate to see the death of a law enforcement officer politicized.

The fact is that it is a dangerous area. The architects of Fast & Furious sought to politicize that fact and blame the area's problems on lax gun control laws. They sought to boolster evidence for their claims by practically giving weapons to the cartels.

But this latest weapon will either be from a gun walking operation which I think will cause pressure to build on President Obama to rescind his EP, or the weapon(s) won't be from the U.S. which will support the argument that the cartels weren't getting their weapons by purchasing them from U.S. gun stores - they have the ability to procure weapons more easily elsewhere. "
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Re the closing of the foregoing, the following aspect of things has long left me curious. Why on earth would the Mexican Drug Cartel types, who seemingly suffer from no lack of funds bother purchasing over priced, pale imitations of the AK-47 from U.S. gun shops, a few at a time, when they could easily swing the purchase of plane loads, possibly shiploads of the real thing, as much lower unit prices? Am I perhaps missing a salient point or two here?
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Old October 3, 2012, 01:47 PM   #2640
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alan said:
Quote:
Re the closing of the foregoing, the following aspect of things has long left me curious. Why on earth would the Mexican Drug Cartel types, who seemingly suffer from no lack of funds bother purchasing over priced, pale imitations of the AK-47 from U.S. gun shops, a few at a time, when they could easily swing the purchase of plane loads, possibly shiploads of the real thing, as much lower unit prices? Am I perhaps missing a salient point or two here?
IIRC the problem is that the cartels buying the F&F guns are the ones we were protecting (Sinanola?). It may have been part of our "working relationship" with the cartels: "Do us a favor and buy some guns from US shops, we will guarantee they will be sold to you and oh BTW, remember we gave you a few million dollars via drug purchases so you should have the cash to but these."

The whole thing stinks. DEA and ATF should both be hammered severely for playing so loose with the cartels.
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Old October 3, 2012, 03:36 PM   #2641
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NWPilgrim wrote:

IIRC the problem is that the cartels buying the F&F guns are the ones we were protecting (Sinanola?). It may have been part of our "working relationship" with the cartels: "Do us a favor and buy some guns from US shops, we will guarantee they will be sold to you and oh BTW, remember we gave you a few million dollars via drug purchases so you should have the cash to but these."

The whole thing stinks. DEA and ATF should both be hammered severely for playing so loose with the cartels.
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Yes, the whole thing does stink, and a number of "government agencies/departments" should be hammered severely, which is perhaps an overly polite way of stating the case.

That having been said, we now come to the difference between the way things are, and the way they should be. I submit than none of the above specified or by inference referenced will end up with some much as a "hair seriously out of place", for the bureaucrats take good care of each other, and devil take the hindmost, that being The Body Politic or The Citizenry.
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Old October 4, 2012, 10:33 AM   #2642
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Luger_carbine quotijng another post offered the following:

"The career bureaucrats of the Phoenix office of the BATFE ginned up operation Fast and Furious and got it blessed by the US AG for AZ. "

Pardon me for asking a possibly dumb question. The "career bureaucrats" mentioned in the quote, our British cousins might describe then as "senoir civil servants" , supposedly operate in the public interest. How come these "career bureaucrats" or whatever one might call them were operarting in a manner so far removed from the interests of the public?

This aspect of the situation leaves the following question standing there, awaiting an answer. Given that these "public servants/career bureaucrats" weren't operating in the public interest, or in a manner that might foster the interests thereof, in whose interests were these "career bureaucrats" operating, and how come it appears that those interests were so far removed from those of the public, that unloved group who pay the bills, who employ these same "career bureaucrats"?

Last edited by alan; October 4, 2012 at 10:46 AM.
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Old October 4, 2012, 11:34 AM   #2643
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Re my last post # 2640), and question(s) therein, might it turn out that these "career bureaucrats" are in business for themselves, that the foolishness inherent in Operation Fast & Furious turns out to be a plain old fashioned exercise in the pursuit of ever more, as in even more power and greater authority to and for the same careerists?

Might it be that the unending quest for that "corner office", the bigger desk, the prettier secretary are behind this entire fiasco, and that supposed "adults" the present administration lacked the sense of responsibility needed to check the antics of spoiled rotten children?

Who knows, but the possibilities appear endless.
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Old October 4, 2012, 01:12 PM   #2644
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The only problem with limiting responsibility to career bureaucrats is that the heads of agencies ARE responsible for what goes on in their agency. If they are not aware of it then it is dereliction of duty. They are SUPPOSED to know about major projects. The troubling thing is how could an operation that involves foreign parties and govts NOT be on the radar of heads of ATF, DEA, and State?

If mid-level managers were able to pull this off without director approval then those agencies are in serious need of overhaul. Somehow I don't find that scenario credible.

At any rate, regardless of whether they knew what was going on in their own agency, directors are responsible for such large programs that involve another country and drug cartels and should be held to account.
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Old October 4, 2012, 05:35 PM   #2645
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NWPilgrim:

In my opinion, both the directors and mid-level managers should be held responsible.

As for the "ATF", that agency has been in need of a major overhaul for lo these many years. Unfortunately, The Congress, under administrations both Democratic as well as Republican has shied away from the necessary action.
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Old October 4, 2012, 09:07 PM   #2646
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Quote:
The only problem with limiting responsibility to career bureaucrats is that the heads of agencies ARE responsible for what goes on in their agency.
Given that F&F was an OCDETF operation, crossing departmental lines and given somewhat free reign with wiretaps...yes, Holder should have been aware of it. He should have been following it closely.
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Old October 5, 2012, 08:26 PM   #2647
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Latest Border patrol shooting - friendly fire?

http://www.policeone.com/border-patr...friendly-fire/
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Old October 6, 2012, 05:41 AM   #2648
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On the "friendly fire".Time will tell,I guess My cynical side thinks 30 days before the election ....nuff said
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Old October 6, 2012, 11:01 AM   #2649
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Despite the fact that Mexico has already arrested two alleged suspects, it is now believed that there were, in fact, NO "suspects" involved.
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Old October 6, 2012, 02:36 PM   #2650
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Next I’m sure we will hear the agent Brian Terry jumped on the bullets in a fit of rage over a beer tab or some other absurd thing like lead rain caused by unusual clouds... No suspects in any of this... just absurdity.... and a very honorable agent who lost his life due to a political ploy named F&F..

Anything but place the blame where it belongs...
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