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Old October 4, 2012, 08:29 AM   #1
valvecovers
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gun dealer is refusing gun shippment

my girlfriend sold her Kimber 45 online

the buyer gave me the address to ship the pistol and their FFL was faxed to fedex

went to the gun dealer here,and they said they didnt need to ship the gun,because the shipper doesnt need an FFL

so we shipped the gun fedex

now the dealer it was shipped to said they cant accept the gun because it was not shipped from an FFL

but federal law clearly states an FFL is not needed to ship,only the recipient must have the FFL

the dealer wants to ship the gun back,and start the whole process over,and i think that is ridiculous.
what is going on here????
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Old October 4, 2012, 08:32 AM   #2
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Caution (or ignorance) would be my guess. Might as well just do it if receiving FFL isn't likely to be swayed.
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Old October 4, 2012, 09:15 AM   #3
wgsigs
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I am a little confused by your transaction. Why did the buyer's FFL fax his FFL to FedEx? I have purchased several guns from auction sites and my FFL always sends a copy of his FFL to the seller's FFL or directly to the seller. While it is not the law there are many FFLs who will not accept shipments from non-FFLs as a matter of policy, maybe because they do not want to give their FFL to a private individual. That could be why the FFL was sent directly to FedEx? The buyer should have mentioned the gun was coming from a non-FFL in the first place.

Unless you can convince the dealer what the law actually is, then it looks like the only alternative is to have it shipped back and re-ship it using your dealer. I'm surprised your dealer didn't offer to ship it initially because he can use USPS priority mail, which is usually cheaper even with his fee than you shipping FedEx overnight.

Who is going to pay to have the gun shipped back? Maybe if it is the reluctant dealer, then he might be convinced what the law really requires and finally accept the gun.
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Old October 4, 2012, 09:26 AM   #4
dogtown tom
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Quote:
valvecovers .....the dealer wants to ship the gun back,and start the whole process over,and i think that is ridiculous.
what is going on here????
It's not YOUR problem, it's the buyers problem.
The dealer the buyer chose probably has a personal or business policy to only receive firearms from other licensed dealers..........it was either the buyers responsibility or his dealer's to let you know that policy.

Federal law clearly permits a nonlicensee to ship a firearm to a licensed dealer. If he says otherwise he is an idiot.

If the buyers dealer sent you his FFL WITHOUT mentioning his requirement to accept firearms only from other dealers......tell him to pound sand. Your buyer needs to talk to his dealer immediately.

If his shipping instructions stated that he will only accept shipments from other dealers..........you screwed up.

Read this:http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651375
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Old October 4, 2012, 09:32 AM   #5
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Agree with the above.

Absent clear instructions otherwise, it's the buyer's FFL who is causing the hold-up, so IMO, it's the buyer's responsibility to get it straightened out.

If the onus is on him/her to fix the problem, he may be able to convince the FFL-holder to accept the perfectly legal transfer.

Best,

Will
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Old October 4, 2012, 10:37 AM   #6
valvecovers
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i have spoken to the buyer,the county sherriff,and the ATF

i told the buyer his dealer signed for the pistol,my obligation is finished.

the county sherriff where this dealer is located basically said i am dealing with a jerk.

it seems i am dealing with a pawn shop,and he is paranoid,because he is accustomed to dealing with dirtbags

the owner of the pawn shop said he is suspicious because the gun was not shipped through an FFL.he actually has accused my g/f of not being the actual owner of the gun

we have agreed to have the gun store where gun was originally purchased to fax the invoice to the pawn shop proving my girlfriend owned the gun

our responsibility ends there
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Old October 4, 2012, 10:59 AM   #7
Salmoneye
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IMO your responsibility ended when the guy signed for the gun...

If it is sitting in his shop and he has not logged it in, I am betting the BATF would frown on that...
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Old October 4, 2012, 12:44 PM   #8
psyfly
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"..accused my g/f of not being the actual owner of the gun..."

Wow.

I think at precisely that point I would have simply emailed him my local Sheriff's phone number and invited him to file a formal complaint.

OTOH, if the buyer is a nice guy, I'd probably do what I could to help him out.

And keep this guy's info in my own "do not deal with" file.

W.
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Old October 4, 2012, 12:49 PM   #9
EOD Guy
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One problem nobody mentioned is that the receiving FFL cannot return the firearm to an unlicensed individual. He can only tranfer to an unlicensed individual after a 4473 is filled out and a background check run (unless excepted from check). He would have to ship the gun back to a licensed dealer.
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Old October 5, 2012, 08:33 PM   #10
dave9969
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now mind you this is strictly speculation on my part but
if the "dealer" that got the delivery wanted to "Return" this to the shipper, I'm sure the shipper would have no issue with providing a LICENSED FFL to return to. I'm certain I would provide such info if the recipient who was causing me the issue, offered to return it I would IMMEDIATELY contact a local FFL and provide that information to him, and then NEVER deal with the buyer, or his FFL again.
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Old October 8, 2012, 10:44 AM   #11
Pointshoot
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I hope the OP and others here won't mind if I ask a related question please - -

I've come across ads in GunBroker, GunsAmerica, etc where private parties are selling guns and state that the buyers FFL must be willing to accept a gun from a private party. When I contacted some of these individuals they said that they use a local FFL to ship handguns by Priority Mail. So, if the seller is using an FFL to ship the gun - - why wouldnt a buyers FFL accept it ?

One of my local FFLs won't accept handguns from private sellers, but I always thought this was in the case of a private seller shipping it to them by overnite UPS or FedX. (Like in the instance mentioned by the OP.) Perhaps someone can clarify this for me. Thank you.
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Old October 8, 2012, 12:29 PM   #12
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointshoot
I've come across ads in GunBroker, GunsAmerica, etc where private parties are selling guns and state that the buyers FFL must be willing to accept a gun from a private party. When I contacted some of these individuals they said that they use a local FFL to ship handguns by Priority Mail. So, if the seller is using an FFL to ship the gun - - why wouldnt a buyers FFL accept it ?
Some FFL holders only want to accept a shipment from another FFL because of issues trying to get the name and address of the person that shiped the firearm to them. If the firearm is shipped from one FFL to another, and the shipping FFL sends a copy of his FFL with the firearm, or emails/faxes it before hand, the receiving FFL will have the information required.

Also, if the receiving FFL does not want to accept delivery of a box/parcel from UPS, USPS or Fed Ex, he can refuse delivery for it when the driver attempts to deliver it. At that point it is still a box/parcel and not treated as a firearm, because it was never received, but the delivery was refused. I know of a few FFL's that do this if they are not expecting a box/parcel from a unknown person, such as a non-ffl holder shipping a firearm, or if there is major visable damage to the box/parcel, etc.

The receiving FFL has to log every incoming gun into his books, and it can be a hard thing to do when the only information is an illegible return address wrote on the box.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; October 8, 2012 at 12:56 PM.
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Old October 8, 2012, 01:23 PM   #13
Pointshoot
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Fishing_Cabin - - thank you for your reply. That makes sense.


If I may ask,- in the case of a private out-of-state seller going through an FFL to ship a handgun to a buyer, - - - does the receiving FFL record the name/address of the private seller somewhere in his paperwork ? I always wondered how 'ownership' was handled when a private sale gun is shipped between FFL holders for their customers.

Related to the OPs questions - - are guns as a matter of routine, run through some kind of 'stolen gun' data base by FFLs as they make transfers ? (Likely not, I suppose - given that the pawn shop owner made his accusations about ownership of the Kimber without any evidence of it appearing on any lists. It would be worth the extra costs of shipping through FFLs for the added reassurance of knowing it wasn't reported stolen, if they did check.)

Thanks again.
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Old October 8, 2012, 02:34 PM   #14
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
If I may ask,- in the case of a private out-of-state seller going through an FFL to ship a handgun to a buyer, - - - does the receiving FFL record the name/address of the private seller somewhere in his paperwork ? I always wondered how 'ownership' was handled when a private sale gun is shipped between FFL holders for their customers.
The initial receiving FFL will record the name, and address in his A&D bound book, as an acquisition.

Quote:
are guns as a matter of routine, run through some kind of 'stolen gun' data base by FFLs as they make transfers ? (Likely not, I suppose - given that the pawn shop owner made his accusations about ownership of the Kimber without any evidence of it appearing on any lists.

Since I dont know where you or the OP is from, I will use NC law to show you an example. There is no requirement in NC for a FFL to report each firearm they receive to be checked to see if it is stolen. In fact I dont know of any other states that require that either, unless the FFL is also a pawn broker. Once the FFL is a pawn broker, he must also follow the laws for a pawn broker, and that will require each firearm (or any item) received as a pawn to be reported. Some states may have a requirement for a pawnshop to include all transactions, such as a straight sale to the pawn shop, not just pawns, in their records.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ยง 91A-15
Record keeping requirements.
(a) Every pawnbroker shall keep consecutively numbered records of each and
every pawn transaction, which shall correspond in all essential particulars to a
detachable pawn ticket or copy thereof attached to the record.
(b) The pawnbroker shall, at the time of making the pawn or purchase
transaction, enter upon the pawn ticket a record of the following information which
shall be typed or written in ink and in the English language:
(1) A clear and accurate description of the property, including model and
serial number if indicated on the property;
(2) The name, residence address, phone number, and date of birth of
pledgor;
(3) Date of the pawn transaction;
(4) Type of identification and the identification number accepted from
pledgor;
(5) Description of the pledgor including approximate height, weight, sex,
and race;
(6) Amount of money advanced;
(7) The date due and the amount due;
(8) All monthly pawn charges, including interest, annual percentage rate
on interest, and total recovery fee; and
(9) Agreed upon 'stated value' between pledgor and pawnbroker in case of
loss or destruction of pledged item; unless otherwise noted, 'stated
value' is the same as the loan value.
c) The following shall be printed on all pawn tickets:
(1) The statement that "ANY PERSONAL PROPERTY PLEDGED TO A PAWNBROKER WITHIN THIS STATE IS SUBJECT TO SALE OR DISPOSAL WHEN THERE HAS BEEN NO PAYMENT MADE ON THE ACCOUNT FOR A PERIOD OF 60 DAYS PAST MATURITY DATE OF THE ORIGINAL CONTRACT. NO FURTHER NOTICE IS NECESSARY.";
(2) The statement that "THE PLEDGOR OF THIS ITEM ATTESTS THAT IT IS NOT STOLEN, HAS NO LIENS OR ENCUMBRANCES, AND IS THE PLEDGOR'S TO SELL OR PAWN.";
(3) The statement that "THE ITEM PAWNED IS REDEEMABLE ONLY BY THE BEARER OF THIS TICKET OR BY IDENTIFICATION OF THE PERSON MAKING THE PAWN."; and
(4) A blank line for the pledgor's signature and the pawnbroker's signature or initials.
(d) The pledgor shall sign the pawn ticket and shall receive an exact copy of the pawn ticket which shall be signed or initialed by the pawnbroker or any employee of the pawnbroker. These records shall be available for inspection and pickup each regular workday by the sheriff of the county, or the sheriff's designee or the chief of police, or the chief's designee of the municipality in which the pawnshop is located. These records may be electronically reported to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police of the municipality in which the pawnshop is located by transmission over the Internet or by facsimile transmission in a manner authorized by the applicable sheriff or chief of police. These records shall be a correct copy of the entries

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; October 8, 2012 at 03:10 PM.
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Old October 8, 2012, 02:50 PM   #15
couillon
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A dealer tried this with me. I shipped a rifle to an FFL dealer in another state. It was an even trade between me and another person. The other person shipped his rifle to my FFL dealer. My dealer had no problem with it, received the rifle and transfered it to me. His dealer said he had to send the one I shipped back because I am not an FFL.

Trade was over in my opinion. I told him I shipped my rifle to him in a legal manner with a copy of my drivers license as allowed by Federal law and there were no laws in either state that prohibited an unlicensed person to ship a rifle directly to an 01 FFL. My dealer had already transfered the other rifle to me. Trade was a done deal. I told him if he shipped the rifle back to me I would refuse the shipment. I instructed him to contact his local ATF representive if he wished to take further action and to feel free to have him call me.

The man I traded with emailed and said the dealer did call his ATF contact, but found he had no recourse against me, so subsequently logged the rifle into his bound book using my drivers license and did the transfer as was allowed by law.
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Old October 8, 2012, 02:57 PM   #16
couillon
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My point is with my story. If you have received the trade or funds for the rifle you shipped, you did so in a legal manner, and the rifle is now in the dealer's hands, it is not your problem. No reason to speak to anyone.
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Old October 8, 2012, 04:19 PM   #17
Pointshoot
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Great info guys - - thank you for providing it to us. Fishing_Cabin thank you for taking the time to post your reply.

I have a few local gunshops that I deal with. I will be make sure to have a conversion with the folks at each of them to find out in advance exactly what they will and won't do in terms of receiving handguns and longguns from an outta state private seller. I assumed that one FFL who will not accept guns from a private seller if they shipped to them directly, would accept them if it was shipped through another FFL. But I better make sure of this beforehand. The FFL holder needs to understand the regs too, and it sounds like some of them don't.
I'd hate to find out there was a misunderstanding right in the middle of a purchase and I had to find another dealer and/or a shipment was refused.

Last edited by Pointshoot; October 8, 2012 at 04:25 PM.
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Old October 8, 2012, 07:24 PM   #18
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointshoot
I've come across ads in GunBroker, GunsAmerica, etc where private parties are selling guns and state that the buyers FFL must be willing to accept a gun from a private party. When I contacted some of these individuals they said that they use a local FFL to ship handguns by Priority Mail. So, if the seller is using an FFL to ship the gun - - why wouldnt a buyers FFL accept it ?
My guess would be that the seller isn't transferring the gun through an FFL, he has an FFL buddy who is willing to walk into a post office and put a box containing a handgun on the counter. I'd say it's probably a very dark grey area, but if the FFL doesn't have the gun in his possession overnight, he may believe he doesn't have to enter it into his bound book. (And that might even be correct.)

In such an instance, the package would be mailed by an FFL, but the transfer on the receiving end would be coming from a non-licensed seller.
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