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Old October 1, 2012, 12:12 AM   #1
Winchester_73
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Anyone like the older Colt bluing?

I managed to get this gem of a Colt 1908 vest pocket online a week or so ago. I was really impressed with the amount of case hardening and its overall condition and originality as well. The grips are original and it has a two tone marked magazine.

I know it doesn't have a tactical rail, nor does it have a 18 rd magazine, it doesn't fire 410 buck shot shells, and its not in .675 magnum, but hey, I like it anyways. I had one almost this nice a while back which I traded to a friend to get that Colt 38 special trooper. We both traded to break even with what we paid. I always wanted another vest pocket since, but I told myself to wait for a nice one for a good value ~ $350 shipped - a good price IMO

This little guy is from 1921 per proofhouse. Its hard to beat the old Colt bluing as many of you know. I just love that blue sheen these guns have. I don't mind carrying a 25, but this one will be retired of that duty. I do plan to shoot it eventually.

You just don't often see em this nice. These were carried in their day. This one somehow survived.




Check out this case hardening. The trigger manual safety and the grip safety are all case hardened. Beautiful pre WWII craftsmanship is rampant on this little Colt.



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Old October 1, 2012, 12:19 AM   #2
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In addition, this was a good lesson for the FFL I got it from on how NOT to ship a firearm. Believe it or not, the seller shipped the gun to me in a flat rate ENVELOPE from the post office. (The gun is a C&R so it was shipped to me) Of course, as luck would have it, something soaked the enveloped to the point where the envelope was disintegrating after I picked it up. Of course, the gun was wrapped up with paper, with no bubble wrap for shock absorption. Luckily the Colt was safe. I called the seller who said he was new to online and shipping, and told him never to do this again, politely. He accepted. I would have been mad even if I got all of my money back, because I wanted this gun dang it.

Here is a photo of the package with the gun still inside. I'm still amazed this FFL did such a thing.

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Old October 1, 2012, 07:59 AM   #3
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You wanted it sent as cheaply as possible!!! That is exactly what he did!
Joe (Nice Colt)
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Old October 1, 2012, 08:18 AM   #4
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Nah, Colt never could figure out how to put a decent bluing on a gun...

My uncle bought one of those years and years ago from a guy who needed gas money. In the box, all the paperwork, absolute pristine shape, probably never even fired. He probably gave the guy $20 for it in the late 1950s.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
You wanted it sent as cheaply as possible!!! That is exactly what he did!
Joe (Nice Colt)
Well he offered to eat the shipping, I guess I should have had him explain just how he was going to do me a "favor" such as that. Thanks. When are you going to sell me your Colts?

Quote:
Nah, Colt never could figure out how to put a decent bluing on a gun...
I must say Mike I disagree with you. When was the last time you had your eyes checked?

I mean look at these other Colts. Maybe you got a bad one









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Old October 2, 2012, 09:45 PM   #6
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Nice little collection of Colt's you've got going there but I don't see any holes in the targets. Are they collectible, too?
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:59 PM   #7
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That there is definitely a small herd of ponies there. That is for sure. Watch out they don't stampede and run right over you.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:30 PM   #8
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I guess its a nice herd...a nice herd of guns where the bluing wasn't put on the greatest

While a S&W guy at heart, I buy Colts almost indiscriminately when possible, because regardless of my opinion, I know the guy down the street is aching for one, and he knows he has to pay to play...
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:51 PM   #9
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For the younger fellas who were asking about wives and inventory in another post, Win 73's collection is what you call "critical mass." You can bring in new ones at any time and it will never be noticed, unless perhaps she has the combo to the safe and likes to snoop.

Nice collection!
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Old October 3, 2012, 08:29 AM   #10
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"I must say Mike I disagree with you. When was the last time you had your eyes checked?"

My eyes are fine. You need your eyes checked becuase you can't see the obvious sarcasm there...

As I said in this thread http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ht=polish+blue no one could do a polish and blue like Colt.
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Old October 3, 2012, 08:42 AM   #11
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Nice collection Winchester 73. I really like the color case hardening on your new addition.
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Old October 3, 2012, 11:53 AM   #12
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You cant ship a pistol through the USPS.
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Old October 3, 2012, 11:56 AM   #13
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Ah, Geez, Winchester 73...you're killin' me with these pics...nice spread of Colt! Rod
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Old October 3, 2012, 03:44 PM   #14
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Thanks everyone for the compliments. I like getting a Colt from time to time although I am more a S&W guy.

Quote:
You cant ship a pistol through the USPS.
Hertz - not exactly. Its legal to ship an antique handgun (pre 1899) through the USPS per their policy. Also, its legal for a 01 FFL to ship through the post office. Since that seller was a 01 FFL aka a gun dealer, they are allowed to ship through the post office. Anyone who is not a 01 FFL cannot use the post office for post 1898 handguns.
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Old October 3, 2012, 06:24 PM   #15
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The FFL who shipped could have used the smallest PRIORITY MAIL flat rate BOX, and it wouldn't have cost much more, if at all.

When using USPS to mail handguns, it was my understanding that both the sender and recipient had to be an 01 (or similar) FFL. (An FFL can't ship a handgun to a non-FFL, or to an 03 FFL.) The 03 FFL doesn't work for handguns (even 03-eligible ones).

I'm not familiar with antique weapons, but most of the very old guns aren't considered weapons for postal service purposes -- which would be why those older handguns can be mailed, if they can.

The OLDER Colt bluing is gorgeous, as is some of the bluing on older S&W revolvers. I had a Model 25 that had bluing so dark and deep you felt you could reach into it. It's all due to the POLISHING that the factory specialists did prior to bluing.


.

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Old October 5, 2012, 07:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
When using USPS to mail handguns, it was my understanding that both the sender and recipient had to be an 01 (or similar) FFL. (An FFL can't ship a handgun to a non-FFL, or to an 03 FFL.) The 03 FFL doesn't work for handguns (even 03-eligible ones).
The USPS restrictions are for the shipper, not the recipient. As long as the person is a 01 FFL, they can ship via USPS to any legal recipient which includes an 03 FFL holder in this case. The 03 FFL works for handguns and was basically designed for that, as long as they meet C&R criteria of course.

I have bought many handguns with my license and many 01 FFLs use the post office to me. I use my C&R for older commercial and military bring backs, not milsurp or anything imported, so I have a good bit of experience with this.

Quote:
Ah, Geez, Winchester 73...you're killin' me with these pics...nice spread of Colt!
Yea, and I don't even like em S&W - improving Colt's invention since 1853
I did sacrifice the Python. For as nice as the bluing looked in that group photo, it was reblued. Sold for $956 just like that online - ridiculous IMO but they, I'm not complaining being on this side of the cash flow.

Quote:
The OLDER Colt bluing is gorgeous, as is some of the bluing on older S&W revolvers. I had a Model 25 that had bluing so dark and deep you felt you could reach into it. It's all due to the POLISHING that the factory specialists did prior to bluing.
Double correct - S&W bluing was every bit as good for the most part AND its all in the polishing. I think people think that the gimic of Colt "royal" bluing distinguishes that bluing from say S&W bluing. S&W was more like "we will do the deluxe bluing as standard, no special name or seller cliche needed" kind of like standard options in a luxury car, sometimes a car salesman will brag about how many options a car has compared to something more economy like, even if the options are standard, which then aren't really options IMO (although you could order a car without standard equipment).

Here is a good example of the S&W sheen - a 4 screw 1958 model 44 magnum aka pre model 29 with the "do you feel lucky punk" 6.5 in barrel. If you think Colt bluing is better than this photo shows, it is only your opinion. I say its a tie and I have a good 2 or 3 of both.

This 44 sports its original "coke bottle" target grips and its actually in the right black presentation case that I found later. The case needs the guts, but still, I was delighted to find the correct case.

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Old October 5, 2012, 09:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
The USPS restrictions are for the shipper, not the recipient. As long as the person is a 01 FFL, they can ship via USPS to any legal recipient which includes an 03 FFL holder in this case. The 03 FFL works for handguns and was basically designed for that, as long as they meet C&R criteria of course.
(That's a gorgeous S&W, by the way...)

This discussion has come up before, and the first time it was discussed, I reread the regs and later called the ATF and asked about this directly.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on all these points. Put simply, handguns are different. You'll find a link to the regs below.

Here's a link to the pertinent regs: http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#1198527 It says:

Quote:
12.1.2 Handguns

Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6,
The people who can use the USPS are dealer and manufacturers involved in the firearms business, and certain other individuals transferring weapons in an official capacity. These folks can only ship to other people in those specified groups/classes. Read sections 12.1.3 and 12.1.5, in the link above.

C&R licensee holders are NOT among the specified parties allowed to use the USPS to ship or receive handguns. Neither are individuals having their own handguns returned to them by a gunsmith or manufacturer.

You've gotten handguns through the mail? It happens, but it's not legal. I have an 03 (C&R) FFL and I once received a C&R pistol from CDNN in a shipment with a C&R rifle. I was really surprised, as I had expected the pistol to come in a separate UPS shipment.

C&R handguns cannot be shipped by a C&R FFL through the USPS. Wish they could, cause Priority Mail is a fraction of the cost of UPS or FedEx.
  • An individual can ship (but not MAIL) a handgun to any FFL who is willing to receive from an non-FFL, but that FFL doesn't have to receive it; some will refuse.
  • A FFL can ship (but not MAIL) a handgun to you directly, if it's already your weapon (as might be the case with a gunsmith returning the gun to you after a repair.)
When handguns are involved, and the recipient is a C&R licensee or an individual who owns the weapon, the FFL can ship to you directly, but can can't use the US Postal Service -- it's got to be FedEx or UPS.

As I said -- handguns are different.

If you've some newer regs or letter rulings that show that the information I've cited here is incorrect, please share it with us -- as I'd love to be able to use the US Mails more widely than I've been using it.
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Old October 5, 2012, 10:53 PM   #18
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The bluing on the last colt I saw was faded and scratched pretty bad.... but the gun was a over 100 years old revolver so I think its to be expected.
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Old October 6, 2012, 10:07 AM   #19
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Quote:
This discussion has come up before, and the first time it was discussed, I reread the regs and later called the ATF and asked about this directly.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on all these points. Put simply, handguns are different. You'll find a link to the regs below.
Well I read them over, and you are right. I appreciate you telling me the truth and correcting me despite what I've seen. I would say in the last year, approx 10 01 FFL dealers sent me handguns through the post office. I am only a C&R 03 FFL. When I posted my understanding of the law, I felt that if the post office mandated the recipient meet special criteria, that these FFLs who think the ATF is supernatural, would follow these laws completely. The other interesting thing is this affidavit which outlines who the 01 FFL is sending the gun too with everything outlined. The laws you sent me state that this affidavit must be filled out each time. Is that not being done? Do the post office people not care. I know the procedure for the 01 FFL is walking in and showing a license and telling them its a handgun. I suppose after that, the post office doesn't ask "hey, you're sending it to one of the type of people, right?". So if that affidavit being done as stated, why do these FFLs send to C&Rs when its obviously not permitted? I don't know but I've noticed many FFLs know less about the laws than private people. I think to be a FFL all you need is the ambition to be be one and nothing else.

Quote:
(That's a gorgeous S&W, by the way...)
Thank you. I went through a lot to get that gun but it was worth it. I had a friend help my wife around the house (they don't care for each other) while she was recovering from a C section. We had a 18 mos old with the new born. I had to plan it all out, and then I kept delaying the date with the previous owner because of my wife being ready to deliver but could not do it naturally. I had to bring this guy guns he wanted, because he wanted to trade (he was a military long arm collector), and then I had to drive hours to get there. He knew it was early and valuable, but he also used it as a tool which I was wowed by. For me it was a treasure, and for him some 44 magnum that he had trouble shooting straight. I found that case in a FFLs attic - like American (gun) pickers really. It was under a pile of papers. I was in the right place / right time for those times.
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Old October 6, 2012, 10:26 AM   #20
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I know the procedure for the 01 FFL is walking in and showing a license and telling them its a handgun.
There's supposed to be other paperwork required, and when I've shipped a handgun through an FFL (but took it to the post office myself FOR the FFL), there was an additional form required. (But not because it was a handgun.) The regs specify the form. I don't know how rigorous the FFLs and Post Office employees are about that extra paperwork. I suspect some are strict and others less so.

(For years, one of the FFLs I used was with short walking distance of the local post office -- so shipping by mail was easy. I shipped a number of guns through him, but acted as his agent by carrying the guns to the post office for him. He was the transfer agent. HE addressed the package,etc., etc., and it was recorded in his "bound book."

IF someone ships it to you, just accept it and smile -- somebody saved a lot of dollars. If there's a problem, it's their problem. Just be wary of shipping a handgun yourself through the US Postal Service. I really wish 03s could do it -- and it's counter-intuitive that we can't.

I had investigated 03 usage some time back, but more recently found other issues I thought I understood, but did not; that was cleared up in a discussion like this, on this forum. (My misunderstanding wouldn't have led to legal problems, but it a pretty bad misinterpretation/misunderstanding.)

The regs are hard to interpret, and sometimes easy to misinterpret. I keep learning how much I don't understand.

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Old October 6, 2012, 10:29 AM   #21
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Just be wary of shipping a handgun yourself through the US Postal Service. I really wish 03s could do it -- and it's counter-intuitive that we can't.
I only ship antiques which are permitted. I would never ship a modern or C&R handgun that way. Not worth the risk. I ship those through fedex.
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Old October 6, 2012, 12:36 PM   #22
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I would never ship a modern or C&R handgun that way. Not worth the risk. I ship those fedex ground.
You're still not home free... while it's NOT illegal to ship a modern or C&R handgun by FedEx ground or UPS ground, it's clear that FedEx or UPS didn't know you were doing it. You're going to pay through the nose if YOU are shipping a handgun.

Federal regulations require you to declare to the carrier that you're shipping a firearm, and the counter person will almost always ask if its a handgun. Both FedEx and UPS counter people will then tell you that their tariffs require that a handgun be shipped by one of their premium AIR services.

Surprisingly, you can't take a handgun to be shipped to one of the UPS retail stores, either. You have to go to a UPS HUB, and those are often quite a distance away. FedEx requires you to go to their hub offices, too.

When shipping FedEx or UPS ground services, if you ever have a hand gun lost or damaged in transit, you'll probably NOT have a claim for your loss... even if you took out insurance.

IF you go to the UPS or FedEx web sites and do an inquiry about shipping handguns you'll find that they REQUIRE you to ship by Air. This is NOT required by law, but it is the CARRIER'S operating rules (called their TARIFFS).

(The requirement to use AIR services started some years back when UPS and FedEx were having a big problem with the employee theft of weapons. The AIR services have much tighter controls and double-checks. This let them cut their losses and allows them to charge their customers more.

.

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Old October 6, 2012, 10:38 PM   #23
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UPS allows shipping via different next day air services:
Quote:
Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).
I think the Air Saver is the least expensive (note that didn't say "cheapest").
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Old October 6, 2012, 11:57 PM   #24
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Good information. I learned a lot in this thread. Unreal how much red tape there is that you have to know. USPS asks and has posters, so I knew that.
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Old October 7, 2012, 10:34 AM   #25
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I've always found UPS a much bigger pain in the butt to work with when shipping firearms than FedEx. That may just be one or two employees at the local Hub, and not representative of other locations. As noted above, CHEAPER does not apply when discussing any of the "Air" delivery methods for either shipper. The charges are almost always the same, give or take a dollar.
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