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Old October 1, 2012, 08:18 PM   #1
Tinner666
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Chasing the Perpetrators?

Here's a situation that could have gone either way. Not even sure which way I would have handled. 'You had to have been there' may best describe it.

http://wtvr.com/2012/10/01/neighbor-...rico-shooting/ (WTVR News, Richmond, VA)

HENRICO, Va. (WTVR)–Henrico Police arrested a man in connection with a deadly weekend shooting in the Dumbarton/Lakeside area.

Michael Jeter Mabry, Jr., 24, is charged with second-degree murder for the death of Donald M. Sims, Sr., age 62 ....
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Old October 1, 2012, 08:30 PM   #2
JimPage
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You mean "perpetraters"

No, you should not chase perps. If you shoot one, you are at fault in most states. Rushing to aid a wounded man is legitimate. Just saying.
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Old October 1, 2012, 08:34 PM   #3
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If you have your concealed carry permit, you should already know what the law is.
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Old October 1, 2012, 08:46 PM   #4
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Walking away may be a lot of things, but in this case, it sure is a lot less complicated.
As noted in other posts, 'not being there' is / avoiding the problem can be priceless.
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Old October 1, 2012, 08:50 PM   #5
Tinner666
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Thanks for the typo catch! I hate typos!
I was posting this recent event as counterpoint to another recent thread where the father shot his son. Both involved outside the house, off property situations.

I know about the law, but there have been situations. (Once a cop friend on foot after a car chase ended in a wreck two blocks away banged on the side of my house during the foot pursuit and hollered he needed backup and help was 20 minutes away! There I was with shorts, tee shirt, 357, and tennis shoes at 3am with him in dark alleys. That was weird and got weirder when 5-6 more LEO's arrived.)
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Old October 1, 2012, 08:53 PM   #6
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BTW, if he had fired, no telling how it would have ended, but there is plenty of precedent to not arrest him if he had, at least in this area.
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:13 PM   #7
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The problem is that once the perps turn and leave that ends that situation !! They're no longer a threat . If you then attack them you have just initiated a second situation !!You are now the attacker not defender !

I remember such a case .A woman is raped but offers no resistance perhaps because of the shock. The perp then leaves and she follows , picks up a brick and beaks his head severely. She is found guilty of assault !

The cases discussed in this part of the forum show again and again that you sould get the best training you can find !
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:23 PM   #8
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The only instance that I would consider doing anything similar to what this man did would be to try to save the man who had been shot. In most all states one justifiable reason for using deadly force is to prevent harm from another innocent person. I can't say for sure what I would have done, but I generally am in the "help whenever I can" crowd. If that meant that I had to draw my weapon on these two to render aid to the injured man, then that is what I would have done.

If they had left the scene, or at least started to, then I would probably wait for them to be gone before going to render aid.

Quote:
I remember such a case .A woman is raped but offers no resistance perhaps because of the shock. The perp then leaves and she follows , picks up a brick and beaks his head severely. She is found guilty of assault !
This could be seen differently than if a man had just been shot and his neighbor was rushing in to protect him, however. Even if the perps were walking the other direction, they could easily turn around to finish him off if they want to because he is helpless to do anything else. That woman had the opportunity to walk the other direction to help herself, she chose to continue the attack.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:11 PM   #9
wayneinFL
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If you have your concealed carry permit, you should already know what the law is.
Are you saying that he should have researched this before getting his permit? Or that this should have been covered already? I don't see where Virginia has any kind of a requirement that the CCW holder has any knowledge of the law.

If he doesn't know, I applaud him for asking.

This is from the VA application:

Quote:
NOTICE 5 USE OF DEADLY OR LETHAL FORCE
FOR THE PURPOSES OF UNDERSTANDING THE LAW RELATING TO THE USE OF DEADLY AND LETHAL FORCE, PLEASE REFERENCE THE VIRGINIA SUPREME COURT WEBSITE AT HTTP://WWW.COURTS.STATE.VA.US/COURTS/SCV/HOME.HTML.
In other words, you're on your own- if you don't know the law, read court cases until you figure it out.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:53 PM   #10
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Chasing retreating perp. in most situations usually means bad mojo for pursuer if gun play comes into the equation during pursuit.
There are exceptions but very few.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:21 AM   #11
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My simple rule (ymmv): only chase perps if they are dragging your wife or kids away.
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Old October 2, 2012, 12:32 PM   #12
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It's almost impossible to same in any certain way what would even be legal or illegal in these situations, and it's almost guaranteed to vary from one locality to the next.

For instance, here in NY, by the letter of the law, at least, it's not neccesarily illegal to shoot a fleeing person who has committed certain felonies.

Unfortunately, what really matters is case law, not so much the "letter" of the law. The only way you're going to know case law is if you're either an attorney who routinely deals with these cases or you PAY a lawyer to research them for you. Being that these instances are so rare, I'm not sure there's even such a thing as a lawyer that deals with them routinely and I have yet to hear anyone volunteer to pay a lawyer to research it.

The easiest and wisest answer is that you don't shoot/chase or otherwise harass a fleeing perpetrator. Yes, we can all come up with scenarios that defy the rule but that's the origin of the phrase "The exception that proves the rule"... you can't have exceptions if the rule isn't valid.
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Old October 2, 2012, 12:38 PM   #13
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I think the simplest answer to the "Can I shoot?" questions is "Do you need to shoot?"
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:33 PM   #14
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I can not imagine a situation where I would "chase" anyone.
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Old October 2, 2012, 10:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Quote from JimPage: You mean "perpetraters"
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Old October 3, 2012, 06:08 AM   #16
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didn't read any of this "yet", but if he hit with a bullet me, and was running away, I'd ammo dump on him, he's looking to go back to get another gun "wink Wink".

Well? Isn't that what you see the copes doing?

Blow his butt cheeks off.

TBS, no, yes, maybe.
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Old October 3, 2012, 06:27 AM   #17
Redhawk5.5+P+
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Ok, just saw the video. The word "perpetrate's" is a gray area to me.

Both parties lacked diplomacy skills AFAIC. Stupid is, stupid dose.

I'm kind of thinking nature way...........

Were was this (State) from?
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Old October 3, 2012, 07:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Posted by Redhawk5.5+P+: didn't read any of this "yet", but if he hit with a bullet me, and was running away, I'd ammo dump on him, he's looking to go back to get another gun "wink Wink".
Even if he were, that would not constitute an imminent threat.

Be careful what you post on public fora.
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Old October 3, 2012, 08:29 AM   #19
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It seems like you are trying to turn a defensive situation (CCW) into an offensive situation. I would never chase anyone down and shoot them, unless stated above "they had my wife or kids dragging them away". A CCW permitt does not entitle you to play police officer. If you try you will be getting into some big trouble. We were told in the police academy about a situation that happened one time. Cop was off duty in a bank with his kid, guy comes in pulls a gun and robs the bank. Off duty cop pulls his gun on bad guy, does not realize that 2nd bad guy is outside. 2nd bad guys sees the pulling of the gun, shoots and kills off duty cop in bank in front of his kid. Moral of the story, dont be a hero, and always watch your 6. Law Enforcement Officers are trained observers, the off duty cop could have been the best wittness for the prosecution. People get CCW's and next thing you know they are trying to be cops. I hope I can go the rest of my life with my CCW and not draw on anyone, but if I have to I will.
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