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Old September 28, 2012, 01:25 PM   #1
pumkin
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reccomendation .223 ?? AR ??

I'm looking to buy a few guns before the election. I aquired a bunch of 223 ammo, so I need a gun. I don't have a great deal of time to spend researching this till I'm blue in the face and still can't make up my mind. So I'm looking for you people reccomendation on an assault type rifle.
I live in California,(10 shots)so it may need a bullet button if it's got a handle grip I think. I can not get used to the feel of a Ruger Ranch rifle. I've got long arms. I seem to have a hard time getting used to a AR with the sights high above the receiver and barrel, also seems butt end of stock doesn't line up with my shoulder naturally. These may be things, I'll just have to work around and adapt to it. Everything from what I hear,ARs are the way to go?? Reliabilty is top concern, it would be nice if it ejects steel ammo like herters etc. When I picked up and held a Saiga, it felt good and natural to me. My cheek could rest against the stock, the sights were low on gun, it felt like a normal rifle to me. It was only 7 or 8 hundred dollars. I was a little afraid of that. I thought that sounded a little cheap for something like this. Any advice would be appreicated.
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Old September 28, 2012, 02:33 PM   #2
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Saigas are very good for the money. Don't expect them to be sub MOA shooters though. They are quite reliable (as with most kalashnikov pattern rifles).

You didn't specify a price, so we don't know exactly what you are looking for. Below I will post some brands to look into. You also didn't specify if you wanted more of a tactical carbine or more of a dmr type rifle.

Some brands to look at are Armalite, Rock River Arms, S&W, Bravo Company USA, Daniel Defense, or POF-USA (my favorite). All of the above make top noch products. If you have any questions about any of the above, PM me.

All of the above accept saiga are ar-15 type rifles, if the sights seem too high, you could get a cheek riser for the fixed stocks like these. It'll bring your face up to the proper height for the sights if you're not there naturally.

All in all, I'd recommend an ar-15 type rifle due to the large number of parts and accessories readily available.
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Old September 28, 2012, 03:08 PM   #3
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Personally, if it was a choice between a neutered AR and a Mini-14, I would choose the Mini in a heartbeat. I don't like messing with the functioning of a weapon as it was designed.

While a well built AR may have higher durability than a Mini-14 in high volume, rapid shooting situations like a carbine class, just how many rounds at a time and how quickly do you think you can shoot with 10 round mags and a bullet button?

The sight line of the AR is high because the stock is straight. Unless there is something wrong with your face (or you are doing it completely wrong), when you rest your cheek on the stock, your eye should line up with the sights.

The stock is straight to reduce the upward climb during full auto fire. With conventional stocks that have drop, a portion of the force coming back into your shoulder will also torque the rifle upwards. This is really only noticeable in full auto fire though.

If you lower the sights on the AR, like other rifles that have drop in their stocks, you won't be able to see through the sights.

If you are going to want to add lights/lasers/optics, the AR is going to be easier to do this on, if you are willing to deal with a bullet button.

I have no experience with AKs in .223. I have heard they aren't as reliable and every manufacturer uses different magazines, but I don't have personal knowledge of that.

(Of course, the best thing to do is move to a free state)
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Old September 29, 2012, 01:45 AM   #4
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Sounds like two good quick overviews. Well longshot, yes $ is important. I would be nice if I got through it on a 1000 -1200. If it takes more, I'm still all ears and why. Armalite I read were first to make it, I wasn't sure if there price was do to their name rep or if it was truly that good. I was looking at rock rivers on Gunbroker 3weeks ago, seems there were plenty of 223, but a tiny bit of 308s. Made me wonder if there is a shortage of them in 308?? I'm going to the gun soon to hold more. Just kinda looking for more quick reccomendations. Thank you Crowhunter for the explanation on why the stock is the way it is. I've tried to make myself like the mini 14 as I tried to make myself like golf, but I just feel cramped up holding it. I havent had the opportunity to fire on, just held them in the stores. 10/22s have the same feeling, but not as bad. All my neighbore had one, best funtiong 22 for the $ by far, but it always felt to fat, for how much gun it was. Another question I want to add , is what is a rail? Looking at pics, it looks like they removed the top handle on ARs and have a place for a scope, or is it sights??
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Old September 29, 2012, 02:36 AM   #5
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All of those are great ARs to consider . Have you thought about building your own . My most recent build cost just over $1,000



and you can build a basic one for 6 to 7 hundred



. PSA has a very good product http://palmettostatearmory.com/ .

As for the stock and sight line . I am in no way an expert but its my understanding that the stock is straight because the BCG ( bolt carrier group ) must slide in to the buffer tube ( stock ) In the normal operation of the gun . If it was bent , curved or canted in any way the bolt would not operate as designed . The by product of this design is less muzzle rise .

I to live in C.A. . You can install the bullet button your self . If you live close to a Turners outdoorsman http://www.turners.com/ They tend to have sales all the time on ARs
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Old September 29, 2012, 04:43 PM   #6
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Terminology stickler incoming!
An AR-15 is not an assault rifle, unless it has burst or full-auto. Using incorrect terms is a bad thing, as antis FREQUENTLY use ambiguous terms to scare the uneducated into thinking that Billy Bob can go to walmart and buy an M16 just like buying groceries. When people think that, they start supporting things like new AWBs...
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Old September 29, 2012, 05:06 PM   #7
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I'm in california too. If you want no heartache, get a bolt action .223.

Our legal ARs, with bullet buttons, were almost outlawed this July. The law that outlawed the use of bullet buttons was broad enough to affect Mini-14s, Saigas, or any other rifle with a detachable magazine (including lever or bolt). It was shot down, but the forces that brought it up swore to do it again.

Check out calguns dot net.

Warning aside, I own AR and MINI. So far I find myself more accurate with AR.I like both, but probably like mini better.

I have unconverted Saiga in .308, and like it also. Saiga isn't as precise as AR in my experience.

If we have to weld mags in place like the law we were almost stuck with, an AR may be easier due to the pivot pins: pull the rear and you have no obstructions.

Good luck deciding.

sent from tapatalk on Evo3G
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Old September 29, 2012, 07:58 PM   #8
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I too would recommend that you build it if you feel comfortable with it; but I'm assuming that due to the fact that you are new to the platform you would rather buy a complete gun, or just stick a upper on a lower. I recommend sticking the upper on the lower.

Maybe a BCM rifle length upper with a rail system, a Chromed BCG, Charging handle to meet your fancy, and a Rock River Arms Complet A2 Lower With or without the NM trigger. The BCG and charging handle go into the upper easily without tools, and the upper goes on the lower with the push of 2 pins. Also it A 18" barrel should fill most any needs you have. With practice you can go out to 1000 yards with it, the 1 in 8 twist works well with everything from 55 grain bullets up to 80 grain bullets, the heavy profile barrel also helps, and the extra 2 inches of barrel length doesn't make that much of a difference. The setup I suggested comes out to about $1200, and will serve every practical purpose you can think of; including looking cool.

Good luck picking or building your new rifle. I hope to see a "I got a new rifle" post from you soon
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Old September 30, 2012, 11:28 AM   #9
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thanks for the responses, Its a little confusing. I want to get one or two of these in 223 and 308 by end of month. I just go a .308 in bolt. Need something thats semi auto. Something that can easily have the CA restrictions taken off it, for when I move out of CA. I saw a video, it was called" if I could only have 5 guns" or something similar. One of the guns was a Bushmaster 16" 223. Any opinions on that? Anyone else built one and care to share it? That was pretty nice the way Longshot listed the parts. ??
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Old October 1, 2012, 06:50 PM   #10
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Several good AR-15 manufacturers/brands were mentioned in post #2. I would give them serious consideration were I you. IMO, you can't go wrong with any of them. I'm thinking there was probably a reason why Bushmaster wasn't listed.

Good luck on what ever you decide on.
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Old October 1, 2012, 07:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Several good AR-15 manufacturers/brands were mentioned in post #2. I would give them serious consideration were I you. IMO, you can't go wrong with any of them. I'm thinking there was probably a reason why Bushmaster wasn't listed.
Yes, there was; Most of their guns have m4 profile barrels. The M4 profile barrel really has no place in the civilian market. Especially in california

They have some that have light profile barrels, which i believe have their place,
but their place isn't in a "do it all" rifle like most first time AR-15 buyers are looking for; I'm not criticizing them for this though. They have some with heavy profile barrels, but I have no experience with those, so I can't speak on behalf of them.

I also had a bad experience with a Bushmaster that shot 3.5 MOA with some 69, 65, and 60 grain handloads that shot very well in other 1 in 9 twist barrels of the same length. 4.75 MOA with some Military surplus stuff, and don't get me started with wolf. I called them, and they wouldn't fix it.

I didn't include the Colt "all powerful" 6920 either because they have the dreaded m4 profile barrel, and colt only requires a 5 MOA 10 shot group from the factory, which for 1k I'd expect more. On average the colts I have shot are around 2.5 MOA, which is within what you need for combat, but isn't exactly what you need for when you decide to shoot steel at 500 yards. You pay for the 7075 T6 parts on it, when with a "range gun" that you occasionally take to a tactical carbine course or something akin to that, you won't need the benefits of 7075 T6 parts.

Now that I have P***ed in the Colt fanboys' cereal, let the games begin
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:22 PM   #12
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Well, I thank Longshot and others for your help. Thanks
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Old October 2, 2012, 07:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
and colt only requires a 5 MOA 10 shot group from the factory, which for 1k I'd expect more.
I have seen you post this a couple of times.

Do you have a link or something to back this up?

I have never seen an accuracy requirement other than for M855 shot out of a military rifle, and that IS like 6 MOA but that is because of the ammo and the way it is constructed, not because of the base rifle.

So, hook us up with a link.
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Old October 2, 2012, 07:51 AM   #14
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ar

Colt.
Ditto the comment about the "high" sights.
They line up with the eye when the the face is on the stock correctly. Prone, sitting, standing.....the aperture is right in front of the eye.
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Old October 2, 2012, 07:58 AM   #15
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I have a Mini 14, a S&W M&P15 and Colt LE6920 and have put thousands of rounds through them. I like both platforms and all offer features which I like/dislike.

I think the Mini is fun to shoot and I love the nostalgia associated with the platform. I do shoot my AR's more often and feel more comfortable with them when running drills etc, but that's just me.

All of my guns are capable of performing at a much higher level than I am able to achieve.

You really can't go wrong with any of the major brands listed here in this thread. Good luck with your purchase.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:06 AM   #16
The Long Shot
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Quote:
Quote:
and colt only requires a 5 MOA 10 shot group from the factory, which for 1k I'd expect more.
I have seen you post this a couple of times.

Do you have a link or something to back this up?

I have never seen an accuracy requirement other than for M855 shot out of a military rifle, and that IS like 6 MOA but that is because of the ammo and the way it is constructed, not because of the base rifle.

So, hook us up with a link.
Here's an article in the american rifleman about milspec.

The first person I had heard it from was a friend of mine that used to be in my unit, but is now an armorer. If you saw some of the new M4s he showed me..... you'd cry.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:46 AM   #17
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6k round service life of a Milspec M4?

I guess I'd better replace my Colt.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:52 AM   #18
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Ah.

Yes.

Quote:
Military Standard of a 5-inch group with iron sights at 100 yards
5 MOA with Iron sights using military spec M855.

I would actually call that pretty respectable. Shooting that with a magnified optic using match grade ammo, wouldn't be very good.

The spec for the M-14 was 8 MOA with M80 Ball which doesn't have a seperate steel penetrator that can be assembled out of the centerline of the bullet and cause wobble.

It is true however, if you want a super accurate gun, Colt 6920 ISN'T the way to go. (No combat rifle is)

Something with a high quality stainless or standard chrome-moly free float barrel with give much better accuracy and if you are chiefly worried about accuracy and not so much reliability, a nice tight .223 Remington chamber and staying with match rounds will help alot.

Thanks for the link.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
Ah.

Yes.

Quote:
Military Standard of a 5-inch group with iron sights at 100 yards
5 MOA with Iron sights using military spec M855.

I would actually call that pretty respectable. Shooting that with a magnified optic using match grade ammo, wouldn't be very good.

The spec for the M-14 was 8 MOA with M80 Ball which doesn't have a seperate steel penetrator that can be assembled out of the centerline of the bullet and cause wobble.

It is true however, if you want a super accurate gun, Colt 6920 ISN'T the way to go. (No combat rifle is)

Something with a high quality stainless or standard chrome-moly free float barrel with give much better accuracy and if you are chiefly worried about accuracy and not so much reliability, a nice tight .223 Remington chamber and staying with match rounds will help alot.

Thanks for the link.
As I said, most of the 6920s i've shot are around 2.5 MOA with an optic and good ammo, which is well within combat standards. Also remember, the guy testing to see if their accuracy is "milspec" is very proficient with iron sights. Personally, with standard ar-15 sights and a very accurate ar-15 and good ammo, i can get 1.5 MOA every time, and 1 MOA 75% of the time since for the first 4 years shooting ARs I only used Irons, and I probably put 25k+ rounds downrange with them. Imagine what the guy that shoots ar-15s with irons from 9 to 5 every day

I believe almost every gun serves a purpose, and the colt serves a very good purpose as a combat rifle, but as a "range gun" it lacks some of the features that one would like, like the m4 profile barrel, it's almost useless on a "range gun" unless you plan on mounting a m203 on it. Or 7075 T6 Forged parts, I doubt that the OP will need the benefits of those parts.

By no means was I saying that the 6920 was a bad gun, I was just saying that it fills a need that most civilians doesn't have.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:26 PM   #20
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wow, Longshot explains it again. Anyway, I've been trying to put together, Longshots design he posted above, it calls for a Rock River lower. I tried to locate some in some shops today, no luck. One shop told me they can get them, there 6mo out and go through a middleman of some sort. Anyone ever seen RockRivers in CA. or know why their scarce?
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Old October 3, 2012, 02:38 AM   #21
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Yes , it's my understanding that there are a few companys that the state of California does not like and kept some of there fire arms on the AWB list longer then others and some are still band . A buddy of mine has an older bushmaster lower that the state of C.A. still will not let into the state even though its virtually the same as the 2 I just bought here . It's also my understanding do to these types of things some companys do not want to do business in C.A. There's more to the store . They did this so we're doing that and vise versa .
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Old October 3, 2012, 08:21 AM   #22
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i own a few and my favorite is my bushmaster ive had it for 6 years and with well over 2000rds through it not one issue
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Old October 3, 2012, 09:21 AM   #23
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That's a real shame that there aren't any rra lowers available nearby

Do you feel comfortable assembling your own lower? Here's a link to a video explaining it. It's pretty straight forward. It requires a small investment in tools, if you don't have them already, of about $50. I recommend using a nylon and brass hammer for the roll pins so you don't have to worry messing up your finish.

If you feel comfortable, here's a list of some good parts:

A DPMS Lower Parts kit minus fire control group. ($30)

RRA 2 stage trigger
($120)

An Aero Precision stripped Lower
Haven't heard anything but good Things about them. ($90)

An A2 buffer kit. (not the A1) ($40)

An A2 Stock ($30)

A Bullet Button ($20)

And a wrench to tighten the buffer tube($6)

Total: $386 with tools, $336 if you already have them.

Good luck
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Old October 6, 2012, 05:06 PM   #24
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In your situation with the bullet button crap and all...I'd rather have the AR over the Mini-14. The mini 14s are fun as hell, and the cool factor for being a.....well....miniature M1A and all it gets at least a B+...but the AR is more practical overall, and going to be more accurate.
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