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Old September 29, 2012, 10:07 AM   #1
Fox84
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Mosin Nagant Ammo ?

My Nags all shoot high with 148 gr bullets at 100 yards. Will shooting a heavier 203 gr bullet shoot lower? I have been sliding some 10 ga wire insulation over my front pin to lower my groups.
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Old September 29, 2012, 10:51 AM   #2
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I think all Mosin's were sighted in a distances farther than 100 yards so you have the right idea in extending your front sight post. At 100 yards, I don't think the heavier bullet will drop any more than the lighter, that doesn't take effect until you are shooting at much greater distances like 500 yards.
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Old September 29, 2012, 09:28 PM   #3
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You need to post in the bolt rifle section and KraigWY will tell you how to modify the rear sight to get it shooting to point of aim. He gives very detailed instruction on how to determine how much metal to remove. I didn't modify mine but if I were going to compete in the GSM matches with it I would.

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Old September 29, 2012, 11:23 PM   #4
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IIRC mosins were given 300 meter battle zeros so you need to aim about a foot low at 100 yards, changing ammo is not going to change that unless you go with VERY low velocity ammo and that would create issues past 100.
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Old September 30, 2012, 07:39 AM   #5
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Most Mosins (every one that I've seen) shoot high, its the way the Russians built the for some reason.

Actually we (the US did the same thing with our M1917s and M1903).

Anyway I'm against "external" changes that would prevent the rifle from being used in CMP GSM as issued matches.

The fix is simple, and is within the rules of the CMP.

The Mosin like most vintage military rifles has a ladder sight, with a slider. As the slider slides up and down the ladder it changes elevation.

You can remove the sight by pushing the sight pin out, (the part that allows the sight to pivot). Take the sight off and mill, file or grind, the bottom of the slider part which will caused the sight to set lower on the base.

To determine how much to remove you set the sights on the 100 mark, and shoot it at 100 yards. Mine shot 8 inches hight.

There are 3600 inches in 100 yards. You measure the sight radius and divide that number by 3600. Sight radius divided by inches to target.

If I remember right, I got .0061 on my Mosin.

What that means is for every change of .0061 of the sight, you change the impact 1 inch at 100 yards.

So I stuck the slider in my miling machine and milled .0488 (8 times .0061) off the bottom of my slider. Put it back on the rifle and shot it.

It was right on at 100, I set the sights at 200, it was on at 200, same for 300 & 400 (thats as far as my range goes).

If you file or grind the bottom of the sight, be careful to keep it straight, you don't want the sight to set cockeyed on the base.
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Old October 1, 2012, 01:01 AM   #6
Josh Smith
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Hello,

Mosins were sighted in with the bayonets attached. Russian doctrine was that the bayonet was to be affixed at all times. The exceptions were while in storage and during certain troop transports.

They saw the rifle as a vehicle for the bayonet, as did many (most) armies of the time. There was even a formula amongst the Germans, Russians, and folks in that area to determine superior bayonet reach etc.

In essence, the infantry were only pikemen armed with pikes that just happened to shoot a bullet.

When you mount your bayonet, the point of impact will return to normal.

Regards,

Josh

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Old October 1, 2012, 01:58 AM   #7
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Josh is correct, but none of the ranges here take too kindly to affixing the bayonet. It just seems over the top.

The "best" modern strategy is to send the front sight to Smith Sights for modification to be adjustable. Then you can correct to point of aim.

Worked for me. (Actually I bought a spare sight from eBay and sent that to be modified while I kept my original sight.)
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:55 AM   #8
Mike Irwin
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It's not so much that Moisins were sighed with the bayonet attached...

It's that they were issued with bayonets with no scabbards so there was no place else to put them.

And, the bayonet generally causes a change in point of impact, but won't generally change it by more than a few inches, if that, at 100 yards.

Oddly enough, I've seen a number of rifles over the years that have shot better with the bayonet attached. It's all how it changes the barrel harmonics...
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Old October 1, 2012, 10:06 AM   #9
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Most of the pre-WWI (and some WWII) battle rifles were designed and sited for +300-meter battlefields, not the paltry 100-yard ranges we casually plink in. Affixed bayonets and heavier bullets might make some difference - I wouldn't count on it. (Besides, affixed bayonets would just change the POI, not necessarily lower it.)
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Old October 1, 2012, 05:12 PM   #10
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Thanks, I have truly found a gun shooting site with smart people. i have lots of guns and lots of questions.
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Old October 2, 2012, 02:27 AM   #11
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Mike, I must respectfully disagree. After finding myself in this business, I did lots of research -- to the point even of translating from Russian. What I found was that the bayonet was intended to stay affixed. Please see, for example, Bayonets before Bullets: The Imperial Russian Army, 1861-1914. Bruce W. Menning. Indiana University Press, 1992. This is but one example; the book is pricey, so if you'd rather see a web reference, please try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet as it's pretty well referenced, and here

Quote:
37 Q. My M91/30 bayonet is numbered to the rifle, but it won't fit on the muzzle, why is that?

A. Soviet military doctrine called for the bayonet to remain fixed to the rifle at all times with the exception of traveling by motor vehicle or when in long term storage. The bayonet will go on, but it will be a very tight fit and will be difficult to remove. This is good for charging infantry, but not collectors. The inside of the bayonet socket can be opened slightly with a large drift punch to make fixing and removal easier.
et cetera

here: http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinFAQ.htm

Those guys are just plain nuts about Mosins. If all else fails, go to http://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/ and ask. Those guys are absolutely psychotic about the Mosin-Nagant to the point that cosmoline removal may be a sin! Tell them I said hello, then use one of these " " to taunt 'em a bit. It's a game I like to call "poke the bear". Seriously, they're good guys.

jsmaye, no, this is not correct. This idea began to evolve after WWII with the introduction of intermediate rounds. A typical light ball round flying at around 2700fps to 2900fps will, when sighted in +2" at 100 yards, be 0" at 200 yards, and -10" at 300 yards.

A battle sight setting was not needed. 100 meters was 100 meters, 200 was 200, etc.

It's only after the intermediate rounds were introduced that the battle sight setting came about, as illustrated on this SKS sight:



"П" stands for "Покой" or, translated, "rest". It's only used if the distance to the target is unknown.

Remember the 10" inch drop at 300 meters of the 7.62x54R at 300 meters? With the 7.62x39, that drop becomes more like a yard -- plenty to cause a miss! This is why the battle sight setting exists on firearms using intermediate rifle rounds.

If either of you gents is interested, there are LOTS of vids up on YouTube done by more knowledgeable folks than myself who have played with the bayonet mounting fairly recently. To a one, the rifle shoots off with the bayonet off, and dead on with the bayonet on. YouTube is not a gunsmithing guide, but it serves well to post demonstrations!

If you'll notice, the carbines issued without bayonets, the M38 and M59, have taller posts and shoot correctly, not high...

I can provide more evidence if you wish. Let me know.

Regards,

Josh
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Old October 2, 2012, 07:17 AM   #12
Mike Irwin
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Josh,

Read my response again -- I'm not really saying anything different from what you're saying, other than I don't believe the rifles were originally sighted with the bayonet fixed.

Initial manufacture of Moisin Nagants, and accessories, was done in France, before manufacture shifted to Russia about 1896-97 (depending on when the various arsenals stood up).

It is my understanding that the initial shipments of rifles from France included scabbards for the bayonets, something the Russians did away with once they took over production.

As others have noted, though, hanging the bayonet off the end of the rifle will generally change the point of impact, but it won't through the sights off dramatically.

The combat zero will still be valid.
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Old October 2, 2012, 07:54 AM   #13
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Regardless whether the bayonet is suppose to stay on or not, I'm not going over the trenches, I use my surplus rifles for targets and enjoyment.

Sure I have bayonets for most of my surplus rifles, for display purposes, I certainly don't shoot with them. I just like collecting boynets to match the rifles.

The best venue in my opinion for surplus rifles is the CMP GSM Vintage Rifle Matches.

There are two requirements for these rifles in CMP matches, they have to be "as issued" and bayonts arn't authorized.

So if my rifles don't shoot right, I fix them, and fix them to keep them within the spirit and rules of the CMP GSM Games.

That's why I posted the method for adjusting the sights on the Mosin. It keeps the rifle within the CMP rules and you don't need a bayonet to shoot them.
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Old October 2, 2012, 08:43 AM   #14
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Quote:
jsmaye, no, this is not correct. This idea began to evolve after WWII with the introduction of intermediate rounds. A typical light ball round flying at around 2700fps to 2900fps will, when sighted in +2" at 100 yards, be 0" at 200 yards, and -10" at 300 yards.

A battle sight setting was not needed. 100 meters was 100 meters, 200 was 200, etc.

It's only after the intermediate rounds were introduced that the battle sight setting came about, as illustrated on this SKS sight:
What I was saying was that the WWI-era rifles were expected to be shot at battlefield ranges, before the short-range house-to-house/jungle tactics that were required later. Sighting a rifle for those ranges meant it would shoot high at 100-200 yards by design. That's why there are so many posts about somehow raising the front sight when the rear sight is already bottomed out.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
There are two requirements for these rifles in CMP matches, they have to be "as issued" and bayonts arn't authorized.

So if my rifles don't shoot right, I fix them, and fix them to keep them within the spirit and rules of the CMP GSM Games.
Seems to me that these two requirements are mutaully exclusive w/ regard to the Mosin 91/30..... and filing on the sight ladder is not in keeping with the spirit of the Games..... maybe fine w/ respect to the rules, but such "gaming the rules" is, at best, distasteful, to me.

"As issued" means just that. Mosins were issued with a bayonet, and were to be fired with it affixed.


As to "hitting high"..... I seem to recall reading somewhere that Russians were instructed to sight on the enemy's belt buckle.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
and filing on the sight ladder is not in keeping with the spirit of the Games....
First you don't file on the ladder, you file on the bottom of the sight.

Its no different then shortening the front sight or changing front sight post on the 1903's.

Or going to a wider sight on the 1903s (since the Marines modified the front sight to .07 which is about the same width as the Garand.

It was common for soldiers to shorten the sight on the Carbine, but its still the orginal sight.

You are adjusting the orginal sights, not repacing them such as putting a Lyman target sight on a Springfield.

The CMP monitors the rules keeping them with the spirit of the vintage rifles.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
jsmaye, no, this is not correct. This idea began to evolve after WWII with the introduction of intermediate rounds. A typical light ball round flying at around 2700fps to 2900fps will, when sighted in +2" at 100 yards, be 0" at 200 yards, and -10" at 300 yards.

A battle sight setting was not needed. 100 meters was 100 meters, 200 was 200, etc.

It's only after the intermediate rounds were introduced that the battle sight setting came about, as illustrated on this SKS sight:
What I was saying was that the WWI-era rifles were expected to be shot at battlefield ranges, before the short-range house-to-house/jungle tactics that were required later. Sighting a rifle for those ranges meant it would shoot high at 100-200 yards by design. That's why there are so many posts about somehow raising the front sight when the rear sight is already bottomed out.
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Old October 2, 2012, 03:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
First you don't file on the ladder, you file on the bottom of the sight.

Its no different then shortening the front sight or changing front sight post on the 1903's.

Or going to a wider sight on the 1903s (since the Marines modified the front sight to .07 which is about the same width as the Garand.
All these alter the rifle from as issued.....

You want to shoot lower without altering the gun? A tiny bit of black electrical tape or appropriately sized black tubing around the front site post to make it taller.... trim to length needed.
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