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Old September 28, 2012, 05:49 PM   #1
357 mag
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hard cast vs round nose

Which one does more damage just curious?
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Old September 28, 2012, 05:51 PM   #2
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If you are using a non-expanding bullet, the larger the "meplat" the more destructive the bullet. The meplat is the flat part on the front of the bullet. That is the business end. RN has no meplat per se.
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Old September 28, 2012, 07:16 PM   #3
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hard cast bullets can also be round nose, or swc or wc or tc. mortimers right, in non expanding bullets its wadcutters(wc) semi-wadcutters(swc) and then round nose (rn). round nose bullets are great for penetration but not for terminal damage, might slip through without mortal damage to the vitals on the other hand, theyre great for barrier busters, auto glass, brick walls and such.
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Old September 28, 2012, 08:42 PM   #4
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Round nose bullets tend to slip through tissue due to their smooth contour. Flat points, semiwadcutters have a pronounced ledge that cuts tissue due to its profile.
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Old September 29, 2012, 02:21 AM   #5
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clarity

"Hard Cast" was (is?) a product line from Rem for magnum handgun ammo, and featured a flat pointed lead bullet, typically heavy for caliber, intended for handgun hunting and slightly higher velocity than typical lead bullets. The slugs in the "Hard Cast" line have a flat point, sort of a wide flatnose shape.

Hard cast is also a term used in reloading and bullet casting to describe a slug that is notably harder than average lead bullets. I am not a bullet caster and am not going to try to describe further.

"Round nose" is a bullet profile or shape. Thus a round nose slug could be hard cast. (or put another way, cast harder?).

Slugs with flat points have long been thought of as better game and SD bullets from big bore revolvers. The classic semiwadcutter is such an example. Round nose lead slugs are typically not thought to be as good for game or SD.

That said, big bore RN lead bullets from a .44 spl, .45 LC or even .45 acp FMJ. are thought to be acceptable SD rounds, but SWC or truncated FP would be a mild improvement.
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Old September 29, 2012, 01:58 PM   #6
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Find and read some of Elmer Keith's books. He designed many classic bullets and killed a whole bunch of large dangerous animals with them all over the planet. He figured out what works and what doesn't. Generally a wide flat nose tears tissue and breaks bones much better than a round nose slug that just punches a round hole and passes through without dumping any energy in the target.
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Old September 29, 2012, 03:43 PM   #7
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Will a soft lead round nose bullet expand if it hits bone or flesh?
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Old September 29, 2012, 03:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasier:
Will a soft lead round nose bullet expand if it hits bone or flesh?
Soft tissue, possible, but probably not.

Bone, very likely, but not guaranteed.
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Old September 29, 2012, 03:56 PM   #9
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Will a soft lead round nose bullet expand if it hits bone or flesh?

Yes. I have seen ballistic gellatin tests of percussion cap round balls, and they flatten in the gellatin slab.

"Gunshot Injuries" by LaGarde is particularly interesting in this regard. Col (Dr?) LaGarde was able to examine living Civil War veterans, skeletons, and interview living wounded, Civil War surgeons. He also had an amazing knowledge of pre WW1 wound ballistics. In Chapter XIII the analysis is that the weapons of the Civil War, firing those huge, dead soft lead bullets, created worse wounds than the jacketed bullets of the era, particularly if they hit bone.

Given that the service rounds of the era were 303 Brit, 8 mm Mauser, the 30-6, one should not dismiss the wounding power of a huge chunk of dead soft lead.

I guess I will always remember the account in Col LaGarde's book about the wounded civil war veteran who had a pistol ball or buckshot lodged in his hand. It had been in his hand for decades and he could make it rattle against the bones of his hand. The veteran took great pleasure in the reaction of visitors when he shook his hand at them.
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Old September 29, 2012, 05:28 PM   #10
lee n. field
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Quote:
hard cast vs round nose
Which one does more damage just curious?
"Hard cast" and "round nose" are orthogonal.
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Old September 29, 2012, 05:53 PM   #11
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Orthogonal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee n. field
"Hard cast" and "round nose" are orthogonal.
I had to look it up and burrow down to the fifth definition sense. "Statistically Independent" or "uncorrelated"

If it is that sense, that the two terms are describing unrelated characteristics, that was already covered.

If so, I admire your efficiency of language (something I obviously lack).

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Old September 29, 2012, 06:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 357 mag
hard cast vs round nose
Which one does more damage just curious?
The two terms describe different characteristics.

Round nose is a shape.

Hard Cast is a material characteristic.

As I understand it, each has particular virtues, chief among them are these two.

Hard cast slugs penetrate to the vital organs of heavily muscled, thick-skinned (and often dangerous) game, so is favored for use on those targets. They do this by retaining their mass well.

Round nose bullets tend to feed more reliably in semi-automatic handguns than other shapes.

Try googling phrases like "Bullet shape and wound ballistics" or Bullet composition and wound characteristics"

I will see if I have any references handy and edit later.

Thanks for asking our advice. Welcome to the forum

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Old September 30, 2012, 03:35 PM   #13
lee n. field
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Quote:
I had to look it up and burrow down to the fifth definition sense. "Statistically Independent" or "uncorrelated"

If it is that sense, that the two terms are describing unrelated characteristics, that was already covered.

If so, I admire your efficiency of language (something I obviously lack).
My usage of the term is old geek-speak.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:43 AM   #14
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The late Jim Cirrilo once told a story of a Mafioso getting five shots in the head via a Chief's Model 36, at close range. All round nose lead bullets. three hours later, all the holes were stitched up, and the Mafioso was walking out of the hospital. The bullets went AROUND the skull and exited on the other side!

So much for round nose lead bullets, for me!

Have a look at some .22 hollow point bullets. They are 'truncated cone' designs. That is what we, in .38 Special, call a 'semi-wadcutter', without the hollow point. They go 'splat' nicely.

'Wadcutters' are 'lead soda cans' in specific caliber. They load flat to the cartridge surface. They make caliber-sized holes, and do not deflect. They do have enough behind them to get in where they need to go.

If you can put them between the shirt pockets, do so with all authority!
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Old October 11, 2012, 09:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
...That said, big bore RN lead bullets from a .44 spl, .45 LC or even .45 acp FMJ. are thought to be acceptable SD rounds, but SWC or truncated FP would be a mild improvement.

In shooting jacks, cottontails and coyotes, I've seen a profound difference in effect between RN and SWC bullets. Hits from RN bullets look like fairly clean wounds, hits from SWC loads look bloodshot and bruised around the bullet hole. Jacks once in a while get up and run off after getting hit with a RN bullet in 44 spl, 45 auto or 45 Colt. I shot one coyote with a 45 auto RN, it simply laid down away from the hit. Coyotes hit with 44 SWC loads look like they were hit with a baseball bat at every hit, even peripheral hits. One jack rabbit came apart after a hit with a factory Winchester Lubaloy 357 SWC load. They dont come apart like that when shot with 223 soft point (cottontails are another story entirely, they aren't very durable compared to jacks)

I''m not even a little bit impressed with 45 auto RN loads for field use. I'm truly surprised they have as good a reputation as they do for defensive work. People must be far less tough than jack rabbits and coyotes.

RN bullets are great for shooting small game when you dont want to tear up the meat.
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Old October 11, 2012, 10:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
That said, big bore RN lead bullets from a .44 spl, .45 LC or even .45 acp FMJ. are thought to be acceptable SD rounds, but SWC or truncated FP would be a mild improvement.
As Malamute eluded to in his post above, I too have found FP bullets to be more than a mild improvement when it comes to killing things. One of my old sig lines here on TFL is "meplat kills".

I've often wondered why the military doesn't use a TCFP of RNFP bullet as opposed to RN / ball when HP's are disallowed.
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Old October 11, 2012, 10:46 PM   #17
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As mentioned in a number of previous posts your question is of apples, and pork chops, Not even apples and oranges.
Here's a drawing that might help to explain the bullet shapes.
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Old October 12, 2012, 12:00 AM   #18
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Last edited by 481; October 12, 2012 at 12:12 AM.
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Old October 12, 2012, 01:30 AM   #19
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Jim Cirillo alos sent more than 1 BD to that big Easy-Hold-Up-Counter in the sky with just one well placed shot from Colt .38 Special.

I think most of the time he had other pistols on him too. Not to mention a Ithica 12 gauge, a M1 Carbine, and other near by Stake-Out Officers equally as armed. But heck, who's counting?
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Old October 12, 2012, 01:55 AM   #20
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Cirillo was in 17 shoot outs and won every time !! He knew how to shoot !
He was a nice guy too with great sense of humor .
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