The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 21, 2012, 09:25 AM   #26
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,651
Blood lust and ranting will lead folks to contribute elsewhere.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 10:20 AM   #27
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistolgripshotty
Ok this is all I'm saying...when SHTF in a life or death situation (which happens somewhere everyday in this world) its either YOU or the OTHER guy (i.e. bad guy). I mean if someone were to break in your home or stick you up at the ATM, you guys mean to tell me that your going to be polite and offer them a glass of water and a turkey sandwich and say; Hey thanks for stopping by and robbing me!!!!
[1] This is not necessarily the kind of situation we are discussion in this thread. There are situations in which lethal force might not be appropriate or legally justified. The issue here is handling those.

[2] There's a lot of difference between using tactics and a level of force appropriate in a situation in which lethal force isn't warranted and inviting someone to lunch.

Again I suggest that you might do well to spend some time studying the legal issues related to the use of force in self defense. This (UseofForce.us) would be a good place to start.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 11:29 AM   #28
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
I don't typically carry non-lethal or less-than-lethal, but my rationale for that should address the OP's question close enough to on point.

First, LEO's usually have back-up present or on the way when they suspect a problem encounter. Even for a routine traffic stop, it is typical for a second unit to at least drive by and check status of the officer. I typically do not have back-up.

Second, a Taser typically only has one ranged shot, after which it becomes a contact stun gun.

Third, sprays either require aim, if concentrated, or are subject to wind, if dispersed. Also, courtesy of Uncle Sam, I have been subjected to the old "remove gas mask and recite phonetic alphabet" drill in a CS chamber. It was unpleasant; burning, watering eyes; draining sinuses; snot running from nose and dripping down chest; mild choking sensation. However, could I have continued a determined attack? I suspect I could have, though my ability would have been degraded.

I know the OP does not wish to discuss unarmed training, but that is also part of my rationale. I have a lot of training in evasion, escapes, takedowns, and controls. A person I cannot physically handle is most likely somebody who will shrug off non-lethal and less-than-lethal devices.

As others have indicated, the two best tools are awareness and avoidance.

But I still strongly believe anybody who carries should have at least some training in close contact / hand to hand, too.

Otherwise, good luck deploying any system, unless you see the attack coming early.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 01:25 PM   #29
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,309
Those are some good points, Mleake.

Another consideration is a citizen will always have close contact/ hand to hand training with him/her anywhere they go while they may not be able to legally carry a taser or pepper spray some places.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 01:42 PM   #30
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 470
Excellent post MLeake

It is good to be reminded that using force, lethal or otherwise, to stop an aggressor is usually easier said than done, and without training and proficiency often ends badly.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

"If you let "need" be a requirement and Government be the arbiter of that "need", then Liberty is as dead as King Tut." Jimbob86
K_Mac is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 01:38 PM   #31
JollyRoger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2005
Posts: 168
If you're carrying a gun, you should be carrying pepper spray. Period. It's cheap and it's usually effective, and it gives you an intermediate option which you need. It's not that uncommon for an unarmed person faced with a gun to cop an attitude and dare you to shoot them. Some posters here will tell you that lethal force is then justified: that kind of thinking will get you sent to prison unless you are a 75 year old man or woman getting pummeled senseless by an 18 year old thug, and there's video to prove it.

Lots of people who have never pointed a gun at anyone in their lives think they can pull the trigger without hesitation on an unarmed assailant. Not likely, and the perils of hesitation at close quarters are obvious. You're much less likely to hesitate with a non-lethal option like pepper spray, however, because you know it does no permanent physical damage.

Pepper spray impacts your ability to breathe deeply, which is great, but even better it causes your eyes to involuntarily squeeze shut, effectively blinding you. I'm a LEO and I've been sprayed a couple times in training, and I've used the stuff for real with good results. People don't drop to the ground like on the commercials for the stuff, granted, but it ruins their day.

Look around at the young ladies the next time you go to the coffee shop or wherever. You'll see pepper spray canisters dangling from some of their purses or keychains. There's your jury pool if you get arrested. They're not carrying tactical knives or impact weapons. They can relate to pepper spray. Another plus.
JollyRoger is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 02:04 PM   #32
Dan Manasia
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Nevada
Posts: 2
I am new here, and have retired in the hills on Nevada, from Downtown NYC. I would like to obtain a Non-lethal, i.e., rubber bullits, to protect my animals and my home. I do not want to kill any animals or any people. If that qualifies me as a wimp, so be it. The question is, do these types of rounds exist for retail purchase, and are they compatible with a conventional shotgun??
Dan Manasia is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 02:26 PM   #33
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Manasia
...I would like to obtain a Non-lethal, i.e., rubber bullits, to protect my animals and my home. I do not want to kill any animals or any people...
They are usually called "less lethal" munitions. They are not guaranteed not to inflict a mortal injury, and people have been killed by them. They are also not always effective at stopping a determined aggressor.

Various types of less lethal munitions are used by law enforcement. Standard procedure in using such munitions against a potentially lethal threat is to do so only with another officer with immediately available lethal force as back-up.

There are potential legal issues as well. Less lethal munitions will generally still be considered lethal force. As such, they may be used only in circumstances in which the use of lethal force would be legally justified. They are not really a part of the continuum of force alluded to elsewhere in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Manasia
...I do not want to kill any animals or any people....
I understand, and that is certainly your decision and choice. But please be aware of the limitations of less lethal munitions and the legal issues. Also be aware that sometimes even lethal force will not immediately stop a determined, potentially lethal attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Manasia
...do these types of rounds exist for retail purchase, and are they compatible with a conventional shotgun??
I know that there are various types (rubber bullets, beanbags, etc.) of less lethal munitions available that may be used in conventional shotguns. I don't know if they are legal in Nevada for private citizens or readily available for retail purchase. I suspect that there are any number of on-line sources.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 03:08 PM   #34
Dan Manasia
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Nevada
Posts: 2
Frank, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I actually got the idea from a reality show about a Mammoth Lakes, CA enforcer, who keeps the bear population at bay with "non-lethal" force. It seems from what I have witnessed, that a bear is almost never killed in this town due to the decisions and expertise of this individual. Of course, if a bear simply cannot be "convinced" to stay away from people and their homes, an "order to kill" is issued. The program has been so successful, that it has received national attention, and only a single bear has had to be put down in the last three years.

I am an animal lover, and only wish to obtain a serious, but non-lethal, deterrent. My thought is that a gun that looks, sounds, and fires like a real shotgun (and still fires a very painful round), should suffice for my purpose. Thanks again. I'll check into it further.

Last edited by Dan Manasia; September 22, 2012 at 03:14 PM.
Dan Manasia is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 04:24 PM   #35
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Dan, provided they are legal in your jurisdiction, they can be purchased from MidwayUSA.

Sent from my HTC One X
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 08:52 PM   #36
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,309
Quote:
If you're carrying a gun, you should be carrying pepper spray. Period. It's cheap and it's usually effective, and it gives you an intermediate option which you need.
There are quite a few citizens that have successfully and legally defended themselves while carrying a firearm without carrying pepper spray.

I can see how pepper spray or some other less lethal option would be vital part of an leo's daily equipment. A leo might need to take an unarmed, large, belligerent shop lifter into custody. The average Joe has the option of backing off from the shop lifter and being a good witness. I'm sure there are some circumstances where a weapon like pepper spray would be a good option for a non-leo but we should remember that using a less lethal weapon on someone is legally acceptable only under narrow circumstances. It's also true that using lethal force one someone is also only acceptable under narrow circumstances but those circumstances are dire enough for me to carry firearm.

For me, having a firearm I'm trained with and having some hand to hand training are higher priorities than purchasing, training with and carrying a less lethal weapon like pepper spray.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 09:14 PM   #37
SouthernMarine
Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2012
Posts: 31
Being a former correctional officer I can fully agree with the OP. I have been sprayed multiple times during training and from the "side shots" during duty. For lack of better terms the stuff sucks and will definately ruin your day.

Probably the best on the market for personal defense is the FOX 5.3, I have seen grown men drop to their knees by being sprayed from it.

I personally used Freeze +P CS/OC spray (which is standard issue around here) amazing stuff and burns like hell...your face feels like its on fire, you can't see, feels like you have sand in your eyes, feels like you can't breath, and by no means can you focus.

CS/OC spray is definately a recommended alternative to lethal force.

Also the FOX Mean Green spray comes out lime green adding a psychological factor to it as well.

Pepper spray is also very affordable $15-$20 for a 2oz can (best size since you can fit it in your pocket. However be sure to check with localn laws because I know in some places (like Florida) you have to get a CCW to carry pepper spray.

Sent from my LGL75C using Tapatalk 2
SouthernMarine is offline  
Old September 23, 2012, 03:07 PM   #38
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
I see options like pepper spray or Tasers more suited for law enforcement in the course of subduing a suspect. We're not supposed to be arresting people, so I don't see it as a must-have. In most situations like this, we're supposed to be getting out of there.

If your life is in danger from someone armed with a weapon, you don't really have a choice, and you don't have the time for anything but lethal force, IMO.

There are some situations in between- someone is stealing your bike, or someone is trying to start a fist-fight with you. In many of those situations, less lethal methods are likely to escalate the violence.

I'm not saying less lethal is useless, but of limited use. And if you're going to use it, you should be trained in its use.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 12:57 AM   #39
SouthernMarine
Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2012
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneinFL View Post
I see options like pepper spray or Tasers more suited for law enforcement in the course of subduing a suspect. We're not supposed to be arresting people, so I don't see it as a must-have. In most situations like this, we're supposed to be getting out of there.

If your life is in danger from someone armed with a weapon, you don't really have a choice, and you don't have the time for anything but lethal force, IMO.

There are some situations in between- someone is stealing your bike, or someone is trying to start a fist-fight with you. In many of those situations, less lethal methods are likely to escalate the violence.

I'm not saying less lethal is useless, but of limited use. And if you're going to use it, you should be trained in its use.
I can see where you are coming from but in situations (such as those you mentioned) pepper spray would be great to neutralize the threat long enough for you to get away.

I'm not saying lethal force is unneccesary if someone breaks into my house at night you're d*** straight I'm gonna use lethal force, however, if someone is threatening and yelling at me on the street then I would use less-lethal force (tazer/pepper spray/ etc)

I also agree with your statement saying persons should be trained with it, however there really isn't much training to do with the above-said methods.

Sent from my LGL75C using Tapatalk 2
SouthernMarine is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 04:37 PM   #40
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
Quote:
Ok this is all I'm saying...when SHTF in a life or death situation (which happens somewhere everyday in this world) its either YOU or the OTHER guy (i.e. bad guy). I mean if someone were to break in your home or stick you up at the ATM, you guys mean to tell me that your going to be polite and offer them a glass of water and a turkey sandwich and say; Hey thanks for stopping by and robbing me!!!!
No, first off he has to get past my security to enter my home. Wont happen without my knowing so that is moot.

Secondly, I dont go to an outdoor atm, I use the one in walgreens or some other store so it is a free transaction and I get some level of security inside.

My point was to not go about in idiot fashion and let some thug get the drop on ya. I was trying to say it nice....a person can take certain precautions in life....or not.
markj is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 05:59 PM   #41
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
I would like to obtain a Non-lethal, i.e., rubber bullits, to protect my animals and my home. I do not want to kill any animals or any people. If that qualifies me as a wimp, so be it. The question is, do these types of rounds exist for retail purchase, and are they compatible with a conventional shotgun??
I also forgot to add; We have encounters with wild dogs quite often on the farm. We originally tried the rubber buckshot method, but that did not work. They would run away, and then come back within a few minutes. Pepper spray is not an option because it requires us to get far too close to these (very aggressive) dogs. No, I do not enjoy killing dogs, but it is the best thing for us (my family) to do and it is the only viable option that we have.
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 09:10 PM   #42
SouthernMarine
Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2012
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by allaroundhunter View Post
I also forgot to add; We have encounters with wild dogs quite often on the farm. We originally tried the rubber buckshot method, but that did not work. They would run away, and then come back within a few minutes. Pepper spray is not an option because it requires us to get far too close to these (very aggressive) dogs. No, I do not enjoy killing dogs, but it is the best thing for us (my family) to do and it is the only viable option that we have.
In the case of feral animals, especially on a farm where they could harm your livestock, I would recommend lethal force as less-lethal methods will only deter them for a short time. I know you may not like to kill dogs but in this case you need to grow an "us or them" mentality.

Sent from my LGL75C using Tapatalk 2
SouthernMarine is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 11:10 AM   #43
hso
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2002
Location: Appalachia
Posts: 170
As pointed out there are no "non-lethal" defensive tool, just less-lethal.

It is important to realize that it is possible, even if unlikely, for someone to die from mace, OC spray or Taser so the use of such defensive tools need to be justified defensively.

I carry Freeze+P as well as other options outside the OPs scope in this thread.
__________________
TANSTAAFL
hso is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 03:28 PM   #44
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,125
So how will you feel if the dog pack kills the deacon's prize red heifer, or your mom's pet cat, or your little brother? Kill them. Don't brag and don't rag. Just look at it as another unpleasant but necessary chore. Animal control in rural settings isn't handled very well. Contact your local game and fish or state police if you think it's required.
Strafer Gott is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 04:58 PM   #45
45YearsShooting
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 98
The police don't just carry guns. They carry pepper spray and a baton. They understand (and are trained) that different situations require different measures of force. So should everyone who carries a gun.

Having a gun as your ONLY defensive weapon increases the likelihood it may be used in a situation where a non-lethal weapon would be a better choice. For this reason, I also carry Fox Labs pepper spray in a quick-draw holster. I get the narrow stream nozzle, for longer distance and better performance in wind. However, it's harder to hit your target with it. Pepper spray PRACTICE is also necessary. You don't carry a gun without practicing with it. The same logic should apply to pepper spray.
45YearsShooting is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 06:40 PM   #46
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 714
Just a few thoughts...

OC--- Its affect varies depending on the person. Some people are not affected in a strong way with OC and may continue to fight even with a proper application of OC. A large number of people will be affected by OC though, and its generally the main less-lethal that I recomend to people. The resulting discomfort caused by OC takes time to go away, and at least when I have had OC applied to myself in training, it takes probably 20-30 minutes to get back to some what normal conditions, and during the 20-30 minutes I had to do alot of irragating my eyes with cool water and using baby shampoo as well on the areas it contacted my skin. My sensations included: intense pain in my eyes to the point of barely being able to see while squinting, my face felt like I shoved it ina 400 degree oven and slammed the door, and I had a level of breathing difficulty, though as part of the test also, I had to fight through an obsticle course. Kinda hard to do when your mostly blinded, lol.

TASER--- TASER is one brand of ECD, and it has its own short comings as well. First of all, its important to note that depending on version a ECD can have either a 5 second time duration, and others have a 30 second time duration. Also, for the ECD to have a proper affect of disabling a threat, it needs to have both of the probes into the skin. Such things as heavy clothing can reduce, or stop the ECD from doing its job properly. It is also a single shot, though there are bulky multi shot models slowly coming out. Once the ECD is applied, it can be re-applied until the battery weakens. Also, the TASER brand ECD's I have been around have the ability to do a drive stun as well. Also, the TASER brand ECD's do have a memory and it can be downloaded by TASER if needed for a trial. I believe the memory is rather limited to how many times it has been discharged (applied). As to what happens from my experience. It was rather minor, almost no pain, just felt like 99.9 percent of my mucsles felt like they locked up. At the end of the 5 seconds there was no pain. Actually it kinda felt like I was tickled in a way really. After the end of the 5 seconds I was instantly able to return to a fight if I had needed.

My personal views--- I feel that OC is the better option for most everyone who desires a less-lethal option. Thats because that the OC takes a longer time to wear off, it allows it to be used with multiple attackers and also allows the person defending theirself to run away and seek safety. With an ECD either you have to stay some where close by so the leads will deliver current from the ECD to the probes, and then its only for 5 or 30 seconds an application. Also, with an ECD, there is a question of who will eventually remove the probes, as well as if you apply an ECD and then run, whatcha gonna do when the leads run out during the 5 to 30 seconds of time it delivers the shock? If a person uses repeated applications of an ECD I am unsure how it would look in front of a jury. The length of the leads, its basically a one-cartridge per attacker and the limited duration of the ECD is why I do not recommend an ECD. The only good point I see toward an ECD is that there is not the decontamination thats required with OC when the law enforcement and medics arrive.

Though I have access to both OC and ECD, I do choose not to carry either. Just my personal view.
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old September 29, 2012, 02:26 PM   #47
Newton24b
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Posts: 974
according to an article in a magazine this year..

30-40 percent of all people are born with a genetic issue that makes them immune to pepper spray.

anyone can build up a tolerance to pepper spray by adjusting their diet.

so basically right off the bat, pepper spray becomes useless on at least 30-40 percent of the population. and the rest of us have different resistance to it depending on how much chilli pepper weeat everyday.
and at the same time, drugs and booze, and medical conditions make the effects of pepper spray different on everyone. same goes forelectrical devices.

its somewhat hard to be born with any resistance to lead.
Newton24b is offline  
Old September 29, 2012, 03:26 PM   #48
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Taser C2, application(s)...

I'm not a sworn LE officer, lawyer(with a JD) or own a C2 Taser; but to my knowledge, the C2 or private citizen version has a more powerful EDW(electric discharge weapon) than the LE/military only X26, X2, X3 Tasers.
The C2s also dispurse a large burst of tiny particles that allow the LE officers who respond to quickly ID the subject(s) who attacked you.
Taser training & policy is for a citizen to deploy a C2 then flee to a safe place if possible. To my knowledge, you can't repeatedly shoot a C2 or EDW because there is only one charge.
I also read that if you are cleared by your local PD or DA's office, Taser will send you a brand new C2 Taser with the legal documents(statements, police reports, etc). That seems fair.
As for firearms & lethal force, I'd only draw and/or fire my concealed firearm in a lethal force event. To carry "rubber bullets", blanks or to "scare" people is not my plan. Some LE agencies & security firms mandate a "shoot to wound" or "fire warning shots" but I disagree with this concept.
My state's Div of Licensing also requires that firearms only be used to defend yourself(the license holder) or others if they are in danger of a violent crime(rape, murder, armed robbery, arson, etc).
When firearms are deployed, you should be fully ready & able to use lethal for e if needed. If you can't use lethal force or honestly feel you have reservations about it, DO NOT carry a loaded firearm.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old September 29, 2012, 04:37 PM   #49
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,651
Got a reference to a real source for the 30% figure. The journal studies I've seen say it is abou 85-90% effective.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old September 29, 2012, 05:20 PM   #50
drcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2009
Posts: 238
Not being a smart a** but the below pic is the 1st level of non-lethal deterrent within the home and when I go walking in the park. The one with the blue collar now weighs 120 the other 110.

When I was younger, I helped train protection dogs. The doberman I had back then was almost as big as the ones I have now. He stopped a couple issues simply by sticking his head out the front door and announcing his presence. We trained them to go for the hand with a weapon first (if there was one) and then a bite to the groin. Because we go camping and take them, I didn't do any training with these guys. They are crosses between Rhodesian Ridgebacks and Dobermans and are fearless when need be and gentle the rest of the time.

I walk these guys out front and on the road and let them be seen. Our immediate neighborhood has my dogs, one across the street as big as mine and a couple smaller ones. None of the neighborhood dogs are mean (not even mine are mean and will play with the neighbors and strange children) but none will let strangers enter the house without being let in.

I do think pepper spray is a viable option though and thank the ones that brought it up for reminding me that I need to go buy a couple for the family.

drcook is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13709 seconds with 9 queries