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Old September 21, 2012, 09:46 PM   #1
Newton24b
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cartridge design project

is it perhaps to late to re make the .410 and bring back the super short original/ i think the 1.75 inch version?

why cant we get together and figure out how to make a shortened .410 that will work in a normal 45 colt cylinder?


and what about getting the sabot loaded cartridge a real go at/ its just a matter of figuring out seating depth to bullet weight to chamber pressure
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Old September 23, 2012, 12:01 PM   #2
dmazur
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I'm not sure I understand the intent...

Pistol-caliber shotshells have been available for quite some time, and (for the determined) you can get the plastic caps and reload these. They fit normal cylinder chambers, I believe. I'm not sure what advantage a .410 hull would offer.

Sabot loads usually have a specific application, such as providing rifle performance in a shotgun platform. The rifle would be better, but there are areas where rifles aren't allowed. Therefore, there is a "driver" for this application, and research is done, and a product brought to market. Where is the driver for a sabot in .45 Colt? If you want a smaller, high velocity round, just use something like a .357 Magnum.

Not trying to be a pain in the neck, but I'm just not following the concept.
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:10 PM   #3
FrankenMauser
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There's really no point in producing a 'shorty' .410 for use in .45 Colt cylinders.

The problem is that you need to leave enough room in the cylinder to allow for a roll crimp to unroll, or a star crimp to unfold. That means you're pretty much right back at the standard length of a .45 Colt case. So.... why not just use a .45 Colt case and a shot capsule to begin with?


Now, if the goal is to have a higher shot payload than is achievable with shot capsules... you have to get a little more involved in the process.


.444 Marlin cases are commonly used by .45 Colt shot shell loaders, as the basis for 'necked' shot shells like those I load for my .44 Mag (though, I use .303 British, .30-40 Krag, or .220 Swift cases).

(Both unmodified cases started as .303 British, but one has been fire-formed to .30-40 Krag.)

The cartridges laying down, and the cartridge in the center are my .44 Mag shot shells. With an appropriate fiber-wad or nitro-card, I can fit just over 1/2 oz of shot. In contrast, .44 Mag shot capsules barely hold 1/4 oz.

Where I have to put a fair amount of work into thinning and turning the rims of the .303/.30-40 cases; .45 Colt shooters don't have to do so with .444 cases.

It's simply a matter of: trim, form the neck, load, and shoot.

With light loads, you'll never have to size the cases again.
With moderate to hot loads, the shoulder will have to be bumped back when reloaded.
Overly-hot loads may lockup the cylinder, though, by pushing the case head hard against the revolver's frame.


The only good way to achieve easy shot shell-to-metallic cartridge interchangeability, is to use a rifle with an appropriate throat, use a revolver with a longer cylinder (a la Taurus Judge), or go to a cartridge that uses a heeled bullet (so there's no transition to bore diameter to cause a constriction). ...or a combination of those options.
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Old February 15, 2014, 02:14 AM   #4
Bezoar
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ive been thinking on this one, and i figured it out completely.

Look at the reloading supplies for the .410 shotshell. the shot cup has a plastic base that takes up 45% of the case volume. Cut the base off and you get to make the whole shell SHORTER. and you still seat the short based shotcup the same way. nothing actually changes as far as case capacity for powder.

or better yet look at remington 410 slugs. half inch at the base is devoted to powder and wads. and the rest of the case is devoted to plastic filler. remove the filler and put the bullet on the case ..short the whole cartridge.


ive seen 320 grain bullets advertised for .410s. wouldnt that be a nice thumper
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Old February 15, 2014, 07:46 AM   #5
SL1
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Taking the cushion off the base of the wad will do two things: (1) negate the sealing effect so that gas can more easily blow-by the shot cup, and (2) increase pressure by increasing the inertia of the material that has to be moved at the beginning of the powder gas expansion, when normally the cushion would be getting compressed, now the shot has to move to make space.

I don't know what the net effect of these two competing effects would be on pressure.

If we were talking about guns chambered for .44 Magnum, I would not sweat the issue, because the peak pressure rating for the Magnum is way above the peak pressure rating for the shotgun shell. But, since we are talking about the .45 Colt, with a peak pressure rating not much above the shotgun range, I think your idea needs some pressure-testing laboratory work before trying it at home. Maybe in a large-frame Ruger chambered for .45 Colt, you would have enough margin. But in a vintage Colt, you might get into trouble.

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Old February 15, 2014, 04:49 PM   #6
FrankenMauser
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Yep.
If increasing the number of shells a shotgunner could keep in his magazine was as simple as removing the filler, or the cushion part of shotgun wads, the standard load from every manufacturer would be 'shorties'.

But... it doesn't work like that. Modern powders are much more violent in launching their payload, than black powder was (which is the basis for our modern shotshell design). As such, those shells need a fair amount of cushion to prevent payload damage, shot cup damage, and gas seal ruptures. And in the case of bird shot loads, if you don't have a fair amount of cushion, your pattern generally goes completely to crap.

The common idea that modern shotshells use cushion wads / "power pistons" to fill the space left behind by the inefficient black powder loads is untrue. They were introduced to control pressure spikes that ruined shot patterns.

In modern loads, cushion wads / "power pistons" are just as important to the overall performance of the shot shell as the powder choice itself.
Even black powder loads used cushion wads. Some old data shows up to 1 inch of fiber wads being used in 12 ga and 16 ga loads.


You can run without any cushion in a shot shell, but it won't perform well. Even my .44 Mag shotshells, shown above, use a nitro card (to seal the powder) and 1-2 cushion wads under the payload. There isn't very much cushion in that load ....but that load was built, from the ground up, to be that way; and it's meant for short-range use out of a rifled barrel. So, spoiling any "pattern" isn't much of a concern.
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