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Old September 22, 2012, 05:25 PM   #26
Constantine
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Incident here where two of our officers were doing a sting operation in front of a Best Buy, when the suspects ran from them in their vehicle almost hitting the officers, they opened fire at the back window.

Let's just say they went right through and they two inside weren't so lucky.

I tried googling the incident but it's not coming up.

It happened on Kendall drive. In Miami-Dade County. At the Best Buy off of 122nd street. Look it up, if you can find it. Officers? Needed, it's a must. Civilians? Wouldn't hurt to have, but I don't think it's needed for civilian CC.
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Old September 22, 2012, 07:46 PM   #27
JohnKSa
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Quote:
None of this ammo was anything "fancy" store bought off the shelf stuff.
It's kind of a paradox. Inexpensive target/practice ammo will probably offer the best barrier penetration available in a given caliber. The problem is that people sometimes want barrier penetration and target penetration and expansion. That's not something you get in a box of target/practice ammo. Even good quality defensive ammo can have problems reliably penetrating barriers and still expanding.
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Old September 22, 2012, 10:36 PM   #28
Edward429451
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And so the search for the proverbial magic bullet begins. One that does it all. If I can't have a magic bullet, then I'd rather be able to blow a hole clean through it for maximum tissue disruption over the expansion with lack of full penetration.

All things considered, penetration is your friend.
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Old September 22, 2012, 10:50 PM   #29
JohnKSa
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The discussion was to answer the question of whether or not citizen self-defense could be benefited by the new barrier buster ammo. I think it can.

The next question is whether or not the benefit is worth the cost. That's a much harder question. People who tend to hope that their purchases will save them in a jam will probably feel one way while folks who lean toward the belief that it's a lot more about skill and practice will likely feel differently.

The Critical Duty ammo is expensive, it's loaded to +P levels, in my carry caliber it comes in an unusual bullet weight which means it almost certainly won't shoot to the same point of aim as my practice ammo and my guns which are sighted for my target ammo and my current carry load.

All that means that I won't be switching to Critical Duty any time soon. Of course, that doesn't mean I can't understand and appreciate the value of the performance level that Critical Duty provides and what an advantage that might be in certain situations.

Is it magic? Nope. Is the benefit enough to make the switch? Not for me--others might have a different take based on their situation. Will using it make a difference in most common scenarios? Not a bit. But in some situations it could make a significant difference. It's always a tradeoff.
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:54 AM   #30
tipoc
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Quote:
None of this ammo was anything "fancy" store bought off the shelf stuff.
When I wrote the above I should have been clearer. The ammo used in at least one case I mentioned, the most recent, was fairly typical JHP ammo. It was noted that it plugged with sheet rock and so acted like ball ammo. It was also, as far as I know not "Critical Duty" or any brand sold as "Barrier Penetrating" jhp. But in all cases it did penetrate several barriers and into people.

In other words many brands of ammo sold today as expanding jhp ammo will readily penetrate through several barriers and more than many shooters think.

Critical Duty and similar ammo may do so more readily and more consistently than some. But do not be misled into thinking that standard jhp won't penetrate walls, auto glass, auto or truck bodies, etc. It will and does so often.

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