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Old September 14, 2012, 06:47 AM   #1
dyl
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Shooting stance/form for ML rifle?

I'm new to muzzleloading and have been getting great help from you all about other topics. I'm much more familiar with handguns than long guns so my question is:

Does anything about using a muzzleloader promote a certain shooting stance that is different from other rifles?

For example, I've seen people make a fist and support the stock close to the trigger guard for target shooting -likely rimfire. I've also seen the newfangled MagPul support arm straight out grasping close to the barrel of an AR (I don't really like that one). I have a shotgun too and learned that the left arm should be "comfortably extended". I wonder if anything about Pyrodex changes our form as it takes longer for a bullet to leave the barrel.

I'm under-educated about long gun shooting but I do carry my fundamentals regarding sight alignment, breathing, trigger control and follow through from handguns.

Apologies for the strange question. Have a great day folks.
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Old September 14, 2012, 08:37 AM   #2
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No apologies necessary.

If I did not like answering questions/discussing opinions, I'd be doing somehting else- probably washing dishes or something else equally productive but a whole lot less interesting.....

The fundamantals are just as important, and a good shooting position is even more important in ML because of the increased lock times: You must hold steady.

I can't see how that AR "arm straight out" deal helps accuracy even with an AR- maybe it's about transitioning between multiple targets/speed .... a non issue with a front stuffer.

The thing to remember is that you want the ground, bones, tendons and ligaments doing as much of the of supporting the gun as possible, not muscles. Muscles tire and get shaky. Shaky is not steady.

The "fist under the gun" with the elbow on the ribs support arm would be better ..... whatever requires the least muscle effort.

Sitting is better than standing, and prone would be better yet- the ground is stable, and never gets tired- though I don't think I've ever fired a ML from the prone- hard to reload down there.

I could not tell you anything about Pyrodex or any other substitute: I shoot only the real Black, and only sidelocks.
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Old September 14, 2012, 09:01 AM   #3
Newton24b
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the thing is, you can hold your rifle or shotgun how you want. just remember that everything youll find in a rifle marksmanship manual was established by a guy using a long rifle in the 1700s
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Old September 14, 2012, 09:16 AM   #4
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Quote:
just remember that everything youll find in a rifle marksmanship manual was established by a guy using a long rifle in the 1700s
They teach prone supported back then? Use of sling loop on the left upper arm? Reading mirgage?

I have a lot of respect for someone who could use a flintlock rifle to get a fatal hit on a single enemy at 200-300 yards...... holding that steady through that glacial lock time while the pan powder is blowing up inches from your eye and the bullets are flying is a very impressive feat, and would require extreme skills and icewater in the veins...... but to say that nothing has been learned since ......
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Old September 14, 2012, 09:44 AM   #5
Pahoo
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It's all in the technique !!

Quote:
The "fist under the gun" with the elbow on the ribs support arm would be better ..... whatever requires the least muscle effort.
This hold can be used most any time one wishes but primarily used to support the weight of the longer barrels. First saw this many years ago at Friendship and some of those folks even leaned back for additional support, while standing. ....

As far as follow through for "Lock-Times", there won't be much difference in percussions but very true on Rock-Crushers. Also keep in mind that burn rates are different. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old September 14, 2012, 10:52 AM   #6
Strafer Gott
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If the ML in question has a radius buttstock, it goes on your arm, not your shoulder. This is to let the recoil turn you a little bit, to dampen the felt recoil.
Shotgun butts get held in the new- fangled way. The elbow on the chest, with the hand well back on the forestock is particularly helpful if your weak side really is weak (I had a stroke, but it hasn't put me out of business yet). Shooting sticks are good, but need as much practice shooting with, as it took to learn the rifle in the first place. I reserve them for my big heavy .58 double rifle.
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Old September 14, 2012, 01:45 PM   #7
dyl
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I see, so the "fist under the stock" wasn't just for rimfires then. I think I'll try that next week, although I might get knocked onto my behind. I've shot air-rifles seated before, knees in front, although with the butt tucked into an elbow as recoil is not an issue. I won't attempt that exact position with the ML.

This particular muzzleloader is an inline, runs on 209 primers. So maybe this is less like a BP rifle and more like a smokeless? I dig the names you all have for these smoke sticks.

This rifle is as utilitarian as can be, no radius buttstock, not even a wood stock, just for the purpose of getting my first deer. I had NO intention of this becoming my latest craze and still sincerely hope it doesn't. However, it is likely the most accurate firearm I own - maybe tied with my CZ 452.

I do like beautiful traditional firearms though, but perhaps when I have more money and after I've gotten my first deer, then I can enjoy the journey a bit more

Although I haven't tried it, I get the idea that if I try to go prone while ground hunting deer, I'll get a face full of moss, leaves, dirt, bugs, and won't see anything Sitting seems promising.
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Old September 14, 2012, 06:50 PM   #8
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In the long run, it's whatever works best for you and the rifle/smoothbore you're using. A long rifle with a 40 - 42 inch barrel that's 3/4" across the flats is a lot lighter than one that's 7/8" across the flats. A shorter rifle, such as a Hawken style that may have a 1" or a 1 1/8" barrel is going to be held a lot differently than say a Vincent rifle with a 13/16" barrel.

Try different ways and you'll find what works best for you.

I'm always amazed by the comments on flintlocks - I don't know why some folks think that the flash int he pan is a big deal or why a flintlock lock should be any slower than a percussion lock. A well tuned flintlock with a properly place flash hole will provide fast and efficient ignition. I've also seen some pretty impressive shots at 200 - 300 yards by some folks with flintlocks. Like anything else, it's dependent on the shooter knowing his rifle, how it shoots and what he has to allow for drop and windage depending upon conditions. If someone doubts that, they should watch a "Gunmaker's match" sometime at Friendship where no one knows the distance to the target (tis match is shot offhand) or visit some shoots where they have long distance matches. My favorite flintlock is my Fusil de Chase - yes, it's smoothbore but it allows me to shoot either RB or shot. Being smoothbore, it's not a "200 yard gun" but with practice, it shoots RB pretty well. In years past, I've taken ducks with it on the wing that were out there at a pretty good distance. You have to forget about the flash and concentrate on the shot just like any gun.
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Old September 15, 2012, 09:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
The "fist under the gun" with the elbow on the ribs support arm would be better ..... whatever requires the least muscle effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahoo
This hold can be used most any time one wishes but primarily used to support the weight of the longer barrels. First saw this many years ago at Friendship and some of those folks even leaned back for additional support, while standing. ....
I would make sure that you can legally use that hold in a match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NMLRA rulebook
POSITIONS
5610–OFFHAND POSITION–Standing on both feet, with no other portion of the body touching the ground or any other supporting surface. The
rifle will be supported by both hands and one shoulder only. The rifle must lie in the palm of the forward hand.
5620–SCHUETZEN OFFHAND POSITION–Same as offhand position; however, a palm rest is allowed.
There is also a real good reason nobody uses slings or shooting jackets there, and don't get no bright ideas about shooting in ski boots either.

Last edited by B.L.E.; September 15, 2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old September 15, 2012, 09:33 AM   #10
4V50 Gary
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The only difference is when you shoot a Federal period long rifle or any long gun with a sharp crescent shaped buttplate. That is secured in the cuff of the arm instead of the shoulder. The low recoil of those guns won't hurt your arm.
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Old September 16, 2012, 05:21 PM   #11
mykeal
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Quote:
The "fist under the gun" with the elbow on the ribs support arm would be better ... I would make sure that you can legally use that hold in a match ...5610–OFFHAND POSITION...
You imply that stance doesn't meet the 5610 requirement. I've seen it used many times at Friendship, under the watchful eye of some very, well, discriminating, RSO's. Perhaps you're taking the word 'fist' to mean balled up hand, suggesting that doesn't fit the 'palm' in 5610? I took it the other way, to mean the forestock in the palm with the fingers curled around it appears to be in a fist.
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Old September 20, 2012, 09:02 AM   #12
Wild Bill Bucks
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dy,

From your post I take that you are more interested in shooting a deer, than you are shooting competition. If this is true, then when you practice at the range, quit worrying about your stance, and try every position you can get into, that you might encounter in a real hunt.

I have shot deer from bending around a tree, squatted down behind a bush, stretched over a big rock, sitting on the ground, hanging from a tree, you name it. There is no perfect form for a hunter, only for competition shooters. Whatever position that puts the sights on the deer, is the perfect position. I'm sure most of the hunters on the forum will agree with this, as we have all had the same things happen to us on hunts.
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Old September 20, 2012, 11:36 AM   #13
Strafer Gott
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DYL, your inline can run on pellets. Pyrodex pellets, while spendy, have a skosh of Holy Black on their backsides, so you get much less ignition delay using them. You could even use Triple Seven, or other powder alternatives that require shotgun primers. The big difference is cleanup. Fouling doesn't much enter in with any of these, and you can shoot many shots before you need so much as a spit patch to loosen things up.
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