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Old September 11, 2012, 09:25 PM   #26
stantheman1976
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This man killed an intruder with a single .22 round. Granted, it was purposely well placed but this proves to me that a small caliber is absolutely better than no caliber when it comes to self defense.
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Old September 11, 2012, 09:32 PM   #27
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stantheman1976,

For sure any gun is better than no gun.

What man with the single .22lr round fired are you referring to ?
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Old September 11, 2012, 10:27 PM   #28
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http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1151926

Sorry. Forgot to paste the link.
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Old September 11, 2012, 10:35 PM   #29
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No Problem--Now I remember.

Of course, if given a choice I would sure rather use a .22lr fired from a rifle for self-defense than a handgun any-day of the week.
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Old September 11, 2012, 11:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stantheman1976
This man killed an intruder with a single .22 round....
Mr Jones did a great job with a .22.

But sometimes a .22 will do the job and sometimes it will not. Sometimes a .357 Magnum will do the job, and sometimes it will not (see the link to the story of Stacy Lim). But overall, you can expect a .357 Magnum to "deliver the goods" more reliably than the .22.

If you choose a .22, you are trading reliable terminal effectiveness for convenience. If you choose a larger caliber, you are trading convenience for more reliable terminal effectiveness. You get to decide what is most important to you.
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Old September 12, 2012, 06:29 AM   #31
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Old January 23, 2014, 07:02 AM   #32
Bill1959
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You guys think too much

A 50 grain FMJ .25ACP bullet will penetrate 14" into the human body. Anyone who considers that an inconsequential wound is wrong. Just presenting a gun - ANY gun - will stop 99% of attacks. Nobody wants to get shot with anything. You guys think too much.

Last edited by Bill1959; January 23, 2014 at 07:08 AM.
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Old January 23, 2014, 07:21 AM   #33
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As I've stated before there is some fact that has been provided and most posts are just opinion. As Bill brought attention to is the OP's statement that "HE HAS" If that is ALL he has the by all means carry it. It is better than nothing and will/can be much more effective that leaving it at home because all it is, is a mere 25 acp.
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Old January 23, 2014, 11:50 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1959
A 50 grain FMJ .25ACP bullet will penetrate 14" into the human body. Anyone who considers that an inconsequential wound is wrong....
But how quickly will it actually stop an attacker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1959
...Just presenting a gun - ANY gun - will stop 99% of attacks....
Ninety-nine percent? Nope, we have no reason to accept that number without data. Just presenting a gun will stop many fights, but 99% is a far too high claim. Even in the well known Kleck-Gertz study, defenders had to fire their guns 24% of the time.

Opinions without anything to back them up really aren't worth much. So beyond what I wrote in post 15, here's some more:
  1. With regard to the issue of psychological stops see

    1. this study by Greg Ellifritz.

      As Ellifritz note in his discussion of his "failure to incapacitate" data (emphasis added):
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Greg Ellifritz

      ...Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things...

      In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this....
      1. There are two sets of data in the Ellifritz study: incapacitation and failure to incapacitate. They present some contradictions.

        1. Considering the physiology of wounding, the data showing high incapacitation rates for light cartridges seems anomalous.

        2. Furthermore, those same light cartridges which show high rates of incapacitation also show high rates of failures to incapacitate. In addition, heavier cartridges which show incapacitation rates comparable to the lighter cartridges nonetheless show lower failure to incapacitate rates.

        3. And note that the failure to incapacitate rates of the 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .44 Magnum were comparable to each other.

        4. If the point of the exercise is to help choose cartridges best suited to self defense application, it would be helpful to resolve those contradictions.

        5. A way to try to resolve those contradictions is to better understand the mechanism(s) by which someone who has been shot is caused to stop what he is doing.

      2. The two data sets and the apparent contradiction between them (and as Ellifritz wrote) thus strongly suggest that there are two mechanisms by which someone who has been shot will be caused to stop what he is doing.

        1. One mechanism is psychological. This was alluded to by both Ellifritz and FBI agent and firearms instructor Urey Patrick. Sometimes the mere fact of being shot will cause someone to stop. When this is the stopping mechanism, the cartridge used really doesn't matter. One stops because his mind tells him to because he's been shot, not because of the amount of damage the wound has done to his body.

        2. The other mechanism is physiological. If the body suffers sufficient damage, the person will be forced to stop what he is doing because he will be physiologically incapable of continuing. Heavier cartridges with large bullets making bigger holes are more likely to cause more damage to the body than lighter cartridges. Therefore, if the stopping mechanism is physiological, lighter cartridges are more likely to fail to incapacitate.

      3. And in looking at any population of persons who were shot and therefore stopped what they were doing, we could expect that some stopped for psychological reasons. We could also expect others would not be stopped psychologically and would not stop until they were forced to because their bodies became physiologically incapable of continuing.

      4. From that perspective, the failure to incapacitate data is probably more important. That essentially tells us that when Plan A (a psychological stop) fails, we must rely on Plan B (a physiological stop) to save our bacon; and a heavier cartridge would have a lower [Plan B] failure rate.

  2. Also see the FBI paper entitled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", by Urey W. Patrick. Agent Patrick, for example, notes on page 8:
    Quote:
    ...Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso. Awareness of the injury..., fear of injury, fear of death, blood or pain; intimidation by the weapon or the act of being shot; or the simple desire to quit can all lead to rapid incapacitation even from minor wounds. However, psychological factors are also the primary cause of incapacitation failures.

    The individual may be unaware of the wound and thus have no stimuli to force a reaction. Strong will, survival instinct, or sheer emotion such as rage or hate can keep a grievously wounded individual fighting....
  3. And for some more insight into wound physiology and "stopping power":

    • Dr. V. J. M. DiMaio (DiMaio, V. J. M., M. D., Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, 1987, pg. 42, as quoted in In Defense of Self and Others..., Patrick, Urey W. and Hall, John C., Carolina Academic Press, 2010, pg. 83):
      Quote:
      In the case of low velocity missles, e. g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissue. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in the tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause the remote injuries produced by a high-velocity rifle bullet.
    • And further in In Defense of Self and Others... (pp. 83-84, emphasis in original):
      Quote:
      The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first or crush mechanism is the hole that the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second or stretch mechanism is the temporary wound cavity formed by the tissue being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism is the only handgun wounding mechanism that damages tissue. To cause significant injuries to a structure within the body using a handgun, the bullet must penetrate the structure.
    • And further in In Defense of Self and Others... (pp. 95-96, emphasis in original):
      Quote:
      Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much-discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable....The critical element in wounding effectiveness is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large blood-bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding....Given durable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of the hole made by the bullet....

  4. And sometimes a .357 Magnum doesn't work all that well. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim. According to the article I linked to:
    Quote:
    ... The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found....
    But she still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty.
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Old January 23, 2014, 03:31 PM   #35
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Here it is straight up and a simple rule. "It's where you put it, and how many times you put it there", plain and simple. Penetration is much more important that expansion use ball ammo. Expansion is useless if you can't hit vitals, again use ball. With ball 12 to 15 inches is perfect. I carry a Beretta Tomcat 32 acp and use ball. Great penetration and I find ball has a tendency to tumble. Now are larger calibers better, of course they are, but not if you don't follow the simple rule. Placement is the most important issue at hand regardless of caliber. I don't get hung up on caliber anymore because I wouldn't want 7 , 8 or 9, 50 grain bullets in my heart or my head tumbling around. That's not a good day for anyone.
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Old January 23, 2014, 04:37 PM   #36
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I'd carry a .25. I think too many people make life choices to accommodate their carry gun, instead of their carry gun allowing them to make easier life choices.


Unless you are planning on getting in trouble, a fast shooting 7 round .25 auto is a lot of gun.


As far as ammo goes, I like the idea of the pellet tipped ammo, but I've carried FMJ myself in a .25. One can always split the difference by alternating FMJ and soft points, if you really can't decide.

And make sure that your chosen carry gun is safe to carry however you choose to. Some of those old pocket guns had very primitive safeties for carrying with one in the pipe, so condition 3 might be better.
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Old January 23, 2014, 05:00 PM   #37
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September 9, 2012, 12:51 PM #1
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Carrying 25 cal for protection
Another zombie thread has been resurrected!

If you have a 25, and can't affoed something else, use it. It beats a fist. Maybe not a sharp stick in the eye, but a fist.
If you're looking to buy a CCW weapon, there are many, many reasonably prices alternatives.
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Old January 23, 2014, 05:02 PM   #38
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With a Mauser 1910, I would be less concerned with power than with the very real possibility that the gun would fail at the wrong time. The trigger and trigger bar springs are rather notorious for breaking (same goes for the Model 1934) and disabling the pistol. In spite of the penetration achieved (was the 5-gallon bucket full of water, or just enough to float the plywood?) .25 auto would not be my choice for a defense gun except where there is need for deep cover. And in that case, I would probably want something smaller than that Mauser.

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Old January 23, 2014, 05:42 PM   #39
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They do make good .25 hollow point rounds. I have some for my .25 but I never shoot that gun. If that's all you have for defense and you don't want to buy a new gun, simply practice with it.... A lot. Shot placement is key.
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Old January 23, 2014, 05:50 PM   #40
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A 25ACP is better than your fist or a hunting knife in one way. It has longer reach.

I do own one 25 that I would trust as a good weapon to defend my life with. It's my Mauser 25-05 rifle, but try as I might I canNOT seem to carry it well in a shoulder holster.
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Old January 23, 2014, 06:00 PM   #41
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let me know when you find a 50gr. FMJ @ 850 fps in a small gun. you wont unless some of the new ammo makers put out a true .25acp round. most you will find from the big three and the like will be about 100 fps slower.
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Old January 23, 2014, 06:07 PM   #42
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850 fps is when fired out of a full size .25 with a five inch barrel.
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Old January 23, 2014, 07:35 PM   #43
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Net, net, folks will shape their perceived threat scenario as solvable with the gun they carry. Jerry Jones had a poignant post on http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=5554 describing this phenomena

I considered "lightening the load" by purchasing a .380. I happened to run into an acquaintance who is a NYC Corrections Officer about the same time, I told him my .380 plans he said: "bro, half the guys in my jail have been shot with a .380, most more than once". Message received, 9mm or 45acp for me (he carries a .40).

YMMV
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Old January 23, 2014, 07:55 PM   #44
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.22s have been used regularly in many a murder case, but it doesn't mean it's a solid self defense round. Most of these punks point the gun right up to their head and pull the trigger. Hell, even a paint gun up close can kill a person...but it doesn't mean I'm going to rely on a paint gun and start carrying one. I'll stick with a stronger caliber....but that's my preference.....

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Old January 23, 2014, 08:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Net, net, folks will shape their perceived threat scenario as solvable with the gun they carry.
Then most people on gun forums are expecting to be in the plot of Die Hard.

I always wonder about the fantasy world a guy who carries a 10mm 1911 to his job at Colortile must be in.
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Old January 24, 2014, 09:56 AM   #46
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Quote:
Just presenting a gun - ANY gun - will stop 99% of attacks. Nobody wants to get shot with anything. You guys think too much.
Hey! Bill1959, thems my words.
Ye just said them first.
I have thwarted attacks three times in my life by showing my carry gun. All three times it was a .22lr.
The three carry guns we own are .22lr, .22lr and a .380.
Without getting into fantasy scenarios (e.g. movie stuff), .22lr shot into an attacker will stop or slow him enough for the intended victum to escape or shoot some more.
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Old January 24, 2014, 01:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
A 50 grain FMJ .25ACP bullet will penetrate 14" into the human body.
This ^^ statement isn't completely correct.

A 50 grain FMJ .25ACP bullet MIGHT penetrate 14" in to the human body.
And it might not.
It might hit a bone or dense tissue and stop a mere two inches in to the body.
There are no real definites when it comes to handgun ballistics and the human body.
There are way too many factors at play (distance, clothing, body composition, etc...).


Quote:
Anyone who considers that an inconsequential wound is wrong.
No, it's not that the wound would be inconsequential, it's whether the wound would stop the attacker before he killed you.

Quote:
Just presenting a gun - ANY gun - will stop 99% of attacks.
Just presenting a gun will stop some attackers, but I think that 99% stat is way too optimistic.

Quote:
Nobody wants to get shot with anything.
True, nobody wants to get shot.
But some folks will risk getting shot for a variety of reasons.
Desperate people do desperate things.
Drug addicts and the mentally ill are completely unpredictable and often react counter to how a drug free sane person might react.

As for the .25 for self defense...
It trumps just fist and feet.
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Old January 24, 2014, 01:21 PM   #48
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Quote:
I considered "lightening the load" by purchasing a .380. I happened to run into an acquaintance who is a NYC Corrections Officer about the same time, I told him my .380 plans he said: "bro, half the guys in my jail have been shot with a .380, most more than once". Message received, 9mm or 45acp for me (he carries a .40).
Lots of guys survive being shot, regardless of caliber, especially from handguns.
Just 2 months ago I radiographed a guy who was accidentally shot by his friend.
He had a .45ACP expanded hollow-point round in his belly, but he lived to tell the tale (albeit with a little less colon).

The real question is this: of all of those prisoners who had been shot with a .380, how many of them continued the fight after being shot?

I'm willing to bet that the majority stopped fighting.
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Old January 24, 2014, 01:24 PM   #49
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In 1600s, the single most dangerous close range weapon was the rapier. It worked by poking 1/4" holes in people.

I realize that .25 is not going to do the damage that a 9mm or larger cartridge will, but the ability to put three to six 1/4" holes all the way through the body in one second should be treated with a little more respect. This is not a one-shot-stop situation. There are no four-shot-stop statistics, but that's how you use a little auto.

That's a good reason to use a little .25 auto rather than a NAA revolver - fast multiple hits.
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Old January 24, 2014, 01:34 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Redneck
I considered "lightening the load" by purchasing a .380. I happened to run into an acquaintance who is a NYC Corrections Officer about the same time, I told him my .380 plans he said: "bro, half the guys in my jail have been shot with a .380, most more than once". Message received, 9mm or 45acp for me (he carries a .40).



Here locally in Wesley Chapel Florida, a retired Tampa Police Capt. shot a young, healthy 6'3" man once in the chest with a .380ACP during an altercation in a movie theatre and killed him on the spot.
You may have read about it.
Not taking sides on this case, just pointing out that the little .380 can do the job.
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