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Old September 5, 2012, 01:45 AM   #1
boosteddc5
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Buying my first AR-15, have some questions

Hey everyone, this is my first post here but I'm sure I'll be a regular in no time. Anyway, I'm about to buy my first ar, but I live in NY so it must be AWB compliant. My question is, if I order a rock river arms entry tactical from budsgunshop.com, will it come to my FFL dealer already AWB compliant, or will the FFL dealer have to do it? If it will already come that way how long does it usually take to get a rifle this way? Also I have a question on a bushmaster. The local shops around me sell the bushmaster post ban carbines at a good price. My concern is that this particular rifle comes with a 14.5 inch barrel and a 1.5 inch brake. Ideally I would like a 16 inch barrel. So my question is, would the 1.5 inches of less barrel on the bushmaster hurt the accuracy of the rifle? I really would like a 16 inch barrel at the least and feel the 14.5 is just too short, but this rifle is the only AWB compliant rifle sold by me that I actually like. If anyone can shed some light on these two subjects that would be awesome. And sorry for making this post so long. Thanks everyone!
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Old September 5, 2012, 01:56 AM   #2
nazshooter
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I'm sure the experts will chime in but the length of the barrel doesn't really have much effect on the accuracy of the gun. It can effect the accuracy of the shooter due to the shorter sight radius but if you'll be using a red dot then that's not an issue. The main effect on an AR is going to be on velocity.

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Old September 5, 2012, 01:58 AM   #3
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Thanks for the post, I do plan on buying an eotech as well.
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Old September 5, 2012, 07:45 AM   #4
FrosSsT
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Buds will ship it to your FFL as is. Your FFL will have to make any modifications to your rifle to make it compliant before transferring it to you (I know how you feel I'm from NJ) As for the barrel length it does not directly effect accuracy (It effects velocity) You would do well researching on google to learn more. I have a Bushmaster M4A3 with a 14.5" barrel and a1.5" muzzle brake to make it 16" and I love it. Eotech makes a great optic by the way, just make sure to shop around online to get one at a good price.
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Old September 5, 2012, 08:23 AM   #5
Crow Hunter
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I remember the AWB days. Thankfully, it expired around here.

Personally, I would rather have a "naked" 16" barrel than one with a muzzle brake. Although the AK74 type brake was better than that double hole brake they used to use. The Izzy comp didn't look like it would be as bad.

They are ear piercingly loud, especially if you have to stand next to the person shooting it.

More annoying to me is the blast wave of air that puffs in your face with every shot if you are shooting from a covered lane or with tree cover.

The shorter barrel will magnifiy this unfortunately.

I personally don't like the looks of Evil Black Rifles that don't have flash hiders but if you are going to shoot it a lot, or ever plan on taking it hunting without plugs or noise canceling ear muffs you might prefer not having a muzzle brake.

I think there are some "muzzle treatments", that you can get that look like a flash hider, but don't rattle your teeth when you fire.

I would definitely try one out before I bought it if I could. I went from a naked barrel to a comped rifle way back in the day, and while it looked better, it was significantly less fun to shoot and this was with a 20" barrel.
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Old September 5, 2012, 02:25 PM   #6
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I live in NJ where we also have a form of "assault weapon" ban that prohibits collapsible stocks and flash hiders on ARs and limits us to 15 round magazines. I just bought a new AR -- a S&W M&P sport ban compliant version. For me, this was the perfect ban compliant AR. It's inexpensive ($630), comes with a collapsible rear sight and flattop with rail, has gotten excellent reviews for reliability and accuracy, and has a target crowned bull barrel rather than a muzzle brake. It doesn't have a dust cover or forward assist, neither of which I need. S&W is the only manufacturer that I know of that makes compliant ARs without a muzzle brake.

I changed the handguard for a Magpul MOE version, installed a Magpul MOE vertical grip, a Viking Tactics light mount with a surefire flashlight I already had, and an Eotech 512. All in, with the new furniture and sight and two additional pmags, I spent less than $1100. For a range toy and home defense gun, I don't think I could have done better anywhere. I suggest you find one if you can.
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Old September 5, 2012, 06:49 PM   #7
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I would say its best to buy the gun already compliant... I believe the seller can not even ship it into the state unless it is compliant... The delivery truck can drive through the state with it on board, but its final destination can not be within the states borders.

If you are having issues finding a compliant "carbine" type. The fixed stock rifle is a good choice. They have 20" barrels, and the longer gas system is a good thing.

Also, you can buy a separate lower, that has the compliant parts. Then an upper with the correct length barrel for you that is also compliant. I suggest a mid length gas system if you are getting a 16in barrel. You may even save a dollar or two, and get exactly the features you want up front.

As far as barrel length... minimum length is 16"... the flash hider does not count as part of the length unless it is permanently attached to the barrel, and not simply threaded on.

Also there is the bayonet lug issue as well, some places do not allow it.

All the states that still have limits are all different... some allow 30 round mags but no collapsible butt stock or other features... some may be the opposite.
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Old September 5, 2012, 08:25 PM   #8
boosteddc5
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In NY we can not have a collapsible stock, flash hider, bayonet lug and are limited to 10 round mags. I have been doing a lot of research on different AR's over the past year or two and have decided that the rra or bushmaster is the one I want. Ideally it would be a rock river arms entry tactical, but nowhere around here sells rock rivers, just bushmasters and some other brands I don't particularly care for. I'm just unsure if its possible to order a plain rra entry tactical while living here in NY. I have shot a few bushmasters on many occasions as my friend and his brother own different bushys. I have not however, ever shot an rra. This rifle will only be used on private property as a target/plinking gun so I'm not so much worried about the noise. I'm also curious that if I were to order the gun, if they would have rra ship them a compliant version and then ship it to my ffl. In that case I'm sure it would take a long time to receive the rifle. How long does it usually take for you all to receive rifles that you have ordered online? Thanks to everyone who's posted and thanks in advance to anyone else who will post!
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:00 PM   #9
allaroundhunter
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Quote:
Ideally I would like a 16 inch barrel. So my question is, would the 1.5 inches of less barrel on the bushmaster hurt the accuracy of the rifle?
You won't notice a difference in accuracy compared to if it was a 16" barrel, and even the velocity loss will pretty much be negligible.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:05 PM   #10
boosteddc5
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^thanks for the post. I just remembered that one dealer near me sells windham weaponry, which is owned by the previous owner of bushmaster. I've heard really good things about them in reviews and remember when holding the gun it felt very nice and the fit and finish was great. Also buds has the ny compliant models at a great price. This might be an option as well since it is already ny compliant. Anyone have any opinions on these? Still looking for answers to the above questions as well!
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:06 PM   #11
CDR_Glock
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If there isn't a flash suppressor to bridge that gap, it would be classified as a SBR. I purchased a 14.5" Noveske Carbone (Thunder Ranch) recently.

I have Eotechs (3) but I also have an Aimpoint T1. The Aimpoint has great battery life and can be kept on.

Whatever, you choose, make sure it's chambered for 5.56mm/.223. Have fun.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:14 PM   #12
allaroundhunter
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Quote:
I just remembered that one dealer near me sells windham weaponry, which is owned by the previous owner of bushmaster. I've heard really good things about them in reviews and remember when holding the gun it felt very nice and the fit and finish was great. Also buds has the ny compliant models at a great price.
If buds already has the compliant models and you like the price then I would go for that. I do not live in a restrictive state so I can't really help you with how long the process would take to make it compliant, but I am pretty sure that the dealer who goes through the process to make it compliant will charge you for labor as well as the transfer fee.

Windham makes fine ARs, and I would not hesitate to take one over an RRA. You will be very happy with either!
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Old September 5, 2012, 10:46 PM   #13
boosteddc5
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^thanks for the help! I was wondering though how long it takes on average to get a firearm from an online site in general. Like if I was buying a gun that was in stock and was already legal. Anyone have insight on that?
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Old September 5, 2012, 11:00 PM   #14
Basement-Gunsmith-Z
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With ar15 barrel lengths i recommend a 18 inch barrel. the 18 inch barrel doesn't affect velocity enough to matter. In terms of accuracy i can't tell the difference of a quality 18" and 20" barrel at 1000 yards with .223. Yes that's 1000 yards that i said Stay away from 24" barrels you will loose velocity with most common loads.

If i were you i would stay away from the 14.5" barrel because you might want to change out the flash suppressor/brake someday. You may also just want to run it without any muzzle device installed. And you loose a good amount of velocity with a 14.5 inch barrel compared to a 16" barrel. But, a 14.5 inch barrel will serve you fine out to around 500 -700 yards.

For most purposes any barrel length will work fine. In my experience from buds it's pretty fast.
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Old September 5, 2012, 11:30 PM   #15
allaroundhunter
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Quote:
^thanks for the help! I was wondering though how long it takes on average to get a firearm from an online site in general. Like if I was buying a gun that was in stock and was already legal. Anyone have insight on that?
Buds typically ships very fast. I have received firearms from them as quickly as 2 business days after I ordered, and the longest was 5 business days (holiday time).

Quote:
And you loose a good amount of velocity with a 14.5 inch barrel compared to a 16" barrel
You actually don't. I posted a link that shows velocity vs. barrel length, and the expected velocity gain of that extra 1.5" barrel length will be anywhere from 50-100 fps. For paper punching (like the OP is wanting), that is a negligible difference.

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/8-L...st-t97334.html

From that link:

Quote:
The range is 26 fps-40 fps per inch of barrel length depending on load.
Quote:
Stay away from 24" barrels you will loose velocity with most common loads.
And while I do not have the tools necessary to perform this test on my own, the link that I provided actually has the tests that prove otherwise.

Last edited by allaroundhunter; September 5, 2012 at 11:37 PM.
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Old September 6, 2012, 12:36 AM   #16
boosteddc5
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^thanks for all that good info. So basically what I've gathered through all the posts is this: I can purchase the RRA entry tactical I want from buds, buds will ship it to my FFL dealer and the dealer will then make the modifications. Can anyone confirm this? And if this is the case, will it cost a lot to have my FFL dealer make these modifications?
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Old September 6, 2012, 12:45 AM   #17
allaroundhunter
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Quote:
Can anyone confirm this? And if this is the case, will it cost a lot to have my FFL dealer make these modifications?
The best answer you will get to these questions will come by contacting the dealer yourself. Some dealers won't do transfers from online purchases, so it is easier just to call to make sure and then ask your other questions while on the phone.
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Old September 6, 2012, 01:49 AM   #18
marine6680
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Order a rifle that is already compliant.

1) Its quicker
2) Its much cheaper than replacing parts to make them compliant.
3) You may not even be allowed to order a non compliant rifle even if it was to be made compliant by your FFL...
(The dealer/FFL holder is the best source to know about that)

Buds will not sell (or at least will not ship if you purchase) a non-compliant rifle as policy and law.

If your local shop orders the rifle directly from RRA, they may send the rifle to the FFL, or they may not. It depends on if the FFL is allowed to receive non compliant rifles into stock. RRA may have a way to order the rifle you want in a compliant configuration already, they may not.... Ordering direct from the manufacturer can take weeks or more depending on their backlog.

Online retailers usually ship pretty fast. It depends on how long it takes for them to get the FFL information you wish to have the gun shipped to. If they have it on file, they usually ship within a couple days, if not, then the FFL will need to fax the info, and you are dependent on them getting it done, if they drag feet, then it slows down shipping.

The difference between the 14.5 and 16 inch barrels is negligible... The difference is that the permanently attached brake makes changing it harder if you was to want to do so.

I have owned a RRA Entry Tactical, it is a fine rifle.

The Windham is a good rifle as well, and it already comes compliant.

There is no need to fixate on the RRA, unless you just really want one.

Since you are limited by being in a ban state, all you gain is aesthetics... as all the features are disabled. You get the collapsible stock look, along with its weaknesses, but none of its benefits. You get the 16in barrel, but its advantages are offset somewhat by the lack of collapsible stock.

If you are concerned with best accuracy, then a longer barrel is for you... 18-20 inches. If you are concerned about longevity of the rifle (wear and tear) then a longer gas system than the carbine length is a good idea as well. (as I mentioned before, mid-length is better, less wear and felt recoil... rifle length is better still... my preferred is the Mid length)

Are you dead set on the carbine style? if not, an A2 or A4 rifle has less issues with compliance... sure its not a carbine, but they have their strong points as well.

If you want a carbine, go for it, its your choice. I suggest just getting the Windham, as its available and just as good as the RRA.
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Old September 6, 2012, 02:11 AM   #19
boosteddc5
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The main reason I want the RRA is for the two stage trigger and the free floated barrel. I've also heard tons of good things about them. The windham is high on my list for the fact that it already comes compliant, has a good price and seems to be of good quality. I have heard the trigger isn't all that great on the windham. The bushmaster also comes awb compliant but has the shorter barrel. I loved how light the bushy was with the shorter barrel as well. I'll have to get in contact with the dealers in my area, it's just very hard to do so with my work schedule. Anyways, does anyone know if the bushmaster and the windham have free floated barrels like the RRA?
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Old September 6, 2012, 02:50 AM   #20
Metal god
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Hey guys . Im in C.A. and we have to neuter are guns here as well . Although are restrictions apear to be different . We are aloud collapsible stocks but we must have a bullet button . If you don't know what that is . Its a thing thats put over the mag release and it stops you from being able to release the mag with just your finger . There is a small hole in the mag release cover and you need a small pointed tool or a bullet to insert in to the hole and push the mag release . We are also restricted to 10 rounds max in a magazine .

Anyways my thought was just build your own .
You get a stripped lower $100
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...r15-lower.html

lower parts kit $40
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...assic-lpk.html

fixed but stock $60
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...stock-kit.html

A complete upper $500--- As for the upper you can customize it Free float rail
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...ium-upper.html

FN makes there barrels so you know there solid .All there other parts are solid as well . There customer service sucks though, but you get your stuff

There you go, all done $700 . Thats with out knowing your laws . you can tinker with it to make sure your compliant with all your state laws .

Thats what I did and got this for $600 out the door


Last edited by Metal god; September 6, 2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Old September 6, 2012, 09:37 AM   #21
Basement-Gunsmith-Z
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Quote:
You actually don't. I posted a link that shows velocity vs. barrel length, and the expected velocity gain of that extra 1.5" barrel length will be anywhere from 50-100 fps. For paper punching (like the OP is wanting), that is a negligible difference.
I've seen several other tests that say that a 24" barrel makes you loose velocity. There are just too many variables when it comes to these tests. You would need several guns with the same brand barrel made with the same tools to really test it. Most .223 loads are designed for a 20" barrel.

I much prefer a 16" barrel or longer. From my shooting I have noticed a significant difference of accuracy between 14.5" and 16" barrels. As I stated in my post above you can't really tell the difference until you get out to longer ranges. I have found that a 24" barrel is more of a compromise than an improvement. I actually get better results out of a 20" barrel than a 24". The extra 4 inches adds weight up front, and decreases the maneuverability and versatility of the gun.
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Old September 6, 2012, 01:10 PM   #22
boosteddc5
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Wow I looked at psa and built a rifle for under 500 dollars (without tax). Thats an awesome price. Anyone have any opinions on the palmetto state armory rifles? It just seems like a very good price.
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Old September 6, 2012, 01:19 PM   #23
allaroundhunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boosteddc5 View Post
Wow I looked at psa and built a rifle for under 500 dollars (without tax). Thats an awesome price. Anyone have any opinions on the palmetto state armory rifles? It just seems like a very good price.
They are great rifles, you would not be disappointed.

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Old September 6, 2012, 01:26 PM   #24
boosteddc5
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It ends up being 460 without tax or shipping from psa. Thats an awesome price. The only thing I would need to have shipped to the FFL dealer is the lower receiver correct? since it's a stripped lower and I would get the buttstock and upper seperately how would that work with the collapsible stock not being compliant and the barrel with an a2 flash hider on it? Would I register the lower first, then put the gun together with the non awb compliant parts and then bring it somewhere to have them make it awb compliant and hope no one catches me in the time being? Just don't wanna break any laws!
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Old September 6, 2012, 01:55 PM   #25
Metal god
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No ,do it your self if you can . What is AWB stand for ? Do you know what exactly needs to be done to make the gun compliant to your states laws .If not , go online and check with your DOJ and ask at your local gun stores . Ask a couple people at a few stores .That should give you an idea if you should try it or not .

As for ordering all the stuff at once and some of it not being legal . In some states just having the parts is not legal . I forget the legal term but just having the parts and you being able to install them is illegal in some states .

So be very carefull what you do I don't want you to get busted and really it's not worth trying and skirt the law just a little thing . you may end up in jail or pay a fine and never be able to buy a gun again . Its never a good idea to play around with that kind of stuff .

Educate your self on all the issues and don't rush in to it .
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