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Old August 19, 2012, 06:32 AM   #1
Moloch
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.45-70 and 3FG

Hi!

I'm fairly new to (re)loading blackpowder cartridges, my question is if I can use slightly compressed Swiss 3FG in the .45-70, instead of 2FG?

I shoot muzzleloaders and use 3FG in all of my rifles all the time, .54 and .58 included because it burns a LOT cleaner, ignites much better and gives 50% better accuracy than with the 2FG.
Especially when using soft lead conicals that need expansion to engage the rifling 3FG does a so much better job.

BUT, most people say that anything larger than 40 is 2FG territory only and I'm afraid of getting overpressure with 3FG in a huge BP cartridge pushing some 400-500 grainers.

Opinions?

Thanks!
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Old August 19, 2012, 08:30 AM   #2
Rifleman1776
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My reply should not be regarded as from experience with loading cartridges.
I am an avid muzzle loader shooter.
In a muzzle loader your load would be just fine.
I have never loaded, or even shot, a bp cartridge of any kind.
But, from what I know about guns, if your rifle is modern and well made the pressures should be well within tolerable/safety ranges.
Interesting question. I'll be following this thread.
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Old August 19, 2012, 03:35 PM   #3
Hawg
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It's not going to hurt anything but I'll argue the 50% increase in accuracy.
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Old August 19, 2012, 04:51 PM   #4
Chowmif16
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You wouldn't be the first to try it

Moloch,
You certainly wouldn't be the first to try it.
In the end, you have to find what your gun likes the best, so try it out!
Cheers,
Chowmi
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Old August 19, 2012, 05:09 PM   #5
mehavey
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You will most likely find that the 45s like 2F far better than 3F,
and 1F compressed 1/8-1/5" over a large pistol primer/under
a milk carton card wad best of all.
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Old August 19, 2012, 10:43 PM   #6
Jim Watson
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A lot of people load .45-70 with FFFg in search of "clean burning", higher velocity, or better accuracy in their rifle.
I might not push a shackledy Trapdoor with it but any stronger action will be fine.

I tried Goex FFFg in lieu of Swiss 1 1/2 and got higher velocity but poorer accuracy. Maybe Swiss 3F is better.
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Old August 19, 2012, 10:55 PM   #7
TomADC
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I tried it when I first started loading more my Sharps, then an older timer had me try Swiss 1.5 my rifle likes it so that's all I use, even my 50,54 & 58 front loaders like it.
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Old August 20, 2012, 07:31 PM   #8
Moloch
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Thanks for the replies guys! So its safe to use 3FG in the .45-70 but it may not be the best choice for accuracy - guess I have to do some extensive testing!

But really bad accuracy would surprise me, all my guns love 3FG and shoot great with it.

By the way, whats the purpose of a wad between powder and bullet? To protect the base and act kind of like a gas-check? Is this really necessary with ordinary low pressure blackpowder?

I don't use any wads in my muzzlelaoders, I tried but they don't react well to any kind of lubed wadding behind the bullet, accuracy usually goes to hell.

Last edited by Moloch; August 20, 2012 at 07:37 PM.
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Old August 20, 2012, 08:56 PM   #9
Hawg
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I used heavily compressed Pyrodex RS in my 45-70 without a wad. Accuracy was very good. It was better with the 405 grainers than the 500 tho.
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Old August 20, 2012, 11:03 PM   #10
Straitshot
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Just wondering.

I havent been shooting my sharps rifles much until recently. I still have some Goex cartridge black powder that I bought several years back that I have been using. Do they no longer make the cartridge powder? As I said, I have been out of touch for quite awhile and just recently started shooting my black powder cartridge and muzzleloader guns again.
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:05 AM   #11
Hawg
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They quit making it. It was a mix of 2F and 3F.
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:14 AM   #12
Jim Watson
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Screen analysis on the Shiloh board shows it awful close to FFg.
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/vi...hp?f=5&t=19645

No matter, it is gone, and even worse, so is Express.
Hodgdon bought out Goex and pared back the product lineup considerably.
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:22 AM   #13
4V50 Gary
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Thanks Hawg. I never knew what GOEX cartridge powder was until you mentioned it.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:55 AM   #14
arcticap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson
No matter, it is gone, and even worse, so is Express.
According to the updates on the Powder Inc. website, Goex intends to re-introduce their Express powder sometime in 2013.

Quote:
March 12, 2012. GOEX Express. It seems GOEX had an exciting event in June 2011, that has delayed their plans for re-introducing GOEX Express. Plans now are for a date some time in 2013.

http://www.powderinc.com/
Quote:
November 21, 2011. GOEX 3F Express! We got 50 pounds! Call now! $19.50/pound delivered for 25 or 50 pounds! If you want less, we can figure that cost, too! Remember, GOEX withdrew their EXPRESS powders from the market earlier this year, and plan a re-introduced product early in 2012. So this is a real find, for someone. Because of the very limited quantity, we are only taking phone or walkin orders for this FFFg GOEX Express powder.

March 21, 2011. We have been waiting for GOEX Express. GOEX explained the delay to us - they are withdrawing GOEX Express powders (not the traditional GOEX powders, GOEX powders are in stock and well supported, and a delight for all) from the market as of now, March 2011. GOEX plans are to re-introduce the GOEX Express product in January 2012.

http://www.powderinc.com/
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Old September 1, 2012, 12:54 PM   #15
drcook
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There are folks that use 3F in 45-90's. I use 15 gr of 3F under 92 gr of 1F in my 45-110.

The only real no-no in a cartridge is 4F or finer (if there is such a thing, or someone makes some),

I have shot 85 gr loads of 3F in my 45-90 Shiloh.

It truly is about the accuracy. Most folks use 1F in 45-100's or above
2F in 70's and 90's and 3F in smaller cases.

Folks use Swiss 1.5 in 70's and 90's.
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Old September 1, 2012, 01:02 PM   #16
Rifleman1776
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drcook, good info.
Quote:
The only real no-no in a cartridge is 4F or finer (if there is such a thing, or someone makes some),
Actually, there is a 7Fg (FFFFFFFg) on the market.
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Old September 1, 2012, 04:00 PM   #17
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i think thats fire cracker powder,a little more than dust. eastbank.
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Old September 3, 2012, 12:54 PM   #18
PawPaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch
By the way, whats the purpose of a wad between powder and bullet? To protect the base and act kind of like a gas-check? Is this really necessary with ordinary low pressure blackpowder?
I'm not sure why, but my Sharps likes a grease cookie between the powder and bullet. I melt a little lube, the pour it on a wax paper, cover it with wax paper and roll it into a thin sheet. After charging with powder, I place the sheet on the mouth of the cartridge and thumb-press it down on the powder, then seat the bullet. It cut groups in my rifle by about 1/3d.
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