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Old August 31, 2012, 03:47 PM   #1
blueglass
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Virginia Gun Rights Restoration Question

does anyone know anything about getting rights restored after a TDO (temporary detention order) in virginia - how easy/difficult it is? i've read a few things online about the laws & how they're written. i figure va is one of the tougher states (after va tech). any insight is appreciated. thanks.
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Old September 1, 2012, 12:18 PM   #2
johnbt
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A TDO won't cause you to lose your gun rights unless, at the evaluation hearing, you voluntarily admitted yourself for treatment or were involuntarily commited. Unless they've changed things in the past few months. But even with a voluntary admission, the state police site still says, "may"

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...igibility.shtm

"A person who answers "yes" to any of the below questions may be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm pursuant to state and/or federal law. "

"13.Have you ever been the subject of a temporary detention order and subsequently agreed to voluntarily admission for mental health treatment? "
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Old September 1, 2012, 12:39 PM   #3
blueglass
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thanks johnbt.
i appreciate the response.
i wonder how difficult it is to get them back.
i know there's a form & you can request a hearing, but all i can find are articles saying so & the rules governing the request etc.
was hoping to see if anyone out there knew about it first/second-hand.
every state is different so it might be helpful to get some insight on the 'virginia way'.
thanks all!
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:39 PM   #4
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So here's my story…

I spent the the better part of the last 10 years caring for a sick father with cancer. When he passed, he left me with a small arsenal of handguns and a lifelong collection of tools. Since the house was shared with my sister, I ask her to move in with me not long after his death. She was working and I was not. She covered the living expenses and I worked at selling off the assets of the estate.

Regrettably, the majority of the handguns were the first to go. had I waited, I could've gotten much better prices for what I sold. But that's a whole other story.

The large cache of machine tools represented the next best source of income. But the market was depressed and it soon became apparent to me that getting more than pennies on the dollar of their worth was going to be a challenge. My sister and I were often at odds over fast sale/quick money versus holding out for a reasonable offer. It became a huge source of contention between us.

One night it came to a head. I had been neglecting my duties as chief cook and bottle washer due to being sick with a nasty combination of cold and flu that had prevented me for getting any sleep for days on end. She was ******. In an effort to escape immediate tensions, I put my dog on leash, slipped my 1911 in my pocket and exited the house to the front yard. She soon followed me out, demanding that I give her the gun. I refused, stating that I needed to be left alone to clear my head. She returned to the house and promptly called the police, reporting to them that I was threatening to commit suicide.

It did not take long for the alarming sight of red dots sweeping through the neighbor's lawns… two officers approaching me wielding tasers. I demonstrated absolute compliance by placing my hands on the roof of the car in front of me. My sister removed the gun from my pocket and placed it on the driveway a few feet away from where I stood.

After the cramped ride, handcuffed in the back of the cruiser, I found myself seated across a table from a representative of the community services board. Her objective was to evaluate my state of mind and determine whether or not I was a candidate for a Temporary Detention Order. keep in mind that I had not slept in several days, was coughing uncontrollably, eyes red and watering and more than a little frustrated with the predicament that I now found myself in. She swiftly signed off on the TDO, most likely because she felt she had better things she could be doing.

Next came three hours in a holding cell with no clue as to what would happen next, followed by a ride to the local medical center where I was poked, probed and violated for over an hour while being asked to sign a countless stream of hospital forms by an army of administrators. I refuse to sign anything. It is worthy to note that in the midst in the first few moments of this calamity, the transporting officer had removed my handcuffs sensing that I was no danger to anyone due to the commonality that we had developed during the 20 minute ride to the medical center.

The mandatory 72 hour hold seem to last forever. a mixture of robotic staff performing their due diligence and a few empathetic professionals seemed to wonder what I was doing there. At last, a brief hearing with a magistrate resulted in my release, but only after the medical center, the psychiatrist, and community services board had piled upon me a stack of bills that I did not have the means to pay for, and for which I am still being hounded.

In order to cover my ass (or so I thought), I volunteered for a stretch of counseling, joined AA and walked the straight and narrow for many months.

As a result of this little adventure, my already tainted credit record is destroyed. It took six months to retrieve my beloved 1911 from the local police department (released to my sister… sigh). But the worst part is that I've lost my Second Amendment rights. the concealed handgun permit that I've held for years is null and void. I cannot possess, transport or purchase any firearms.

This brings me to the entire point of this post. I have found little to nothing on the web regarding the process required to restore firearm rights to someone that is been victimized by an unfounded TBO. It seems to me that my course of action would be easier had I been convicted of a felony. in these days of crazies committing unfathomable acts with firearms I can understand the reticence of the system to grant anybody remotely considered mentally unstable their firearm rights but I am one of the good guys!

I'm hoping somebody out there has some constructive guidance to offer me in this unfortunate situation.
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:47 PM   #5
ScottRiqui
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If you were never committed, or held beyond the 72-hour evaluation period, I don't think that affects your gun rights. Have you actually had a CHL application or a firearm purchase denied because of your experience?
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Old February 14, 2013, 11:00 PM   #6
overhead
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Contact an attorney. But here is the law that applies to your situation.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...d+18.2-308.1C3

"B. Any person prohibited from purchasing, possessing or transporting firearms under this section may, at any time following his release from involuntary admission to a facility, his release from an order of mandatory outpatient treatment, or his release from voluntary admission pursuant to § 37.2-805 following the issuance of a temporary detention order, petition the general district court in the city or county in which he resides to restore his right to purchase, possess or transport a firearm. A copy of the petition shall be mailed or delivered to the attorney for the Commonwealth for the jurisdiction where the petition was filed who shall be entitled to respond and represent the interests of the Commonwealth. The court shall conduct a hearing if requested by either party. If the court determines, after receiving and considering evidence concerning the circumstances regarding the disabilities referred to in subsection A and the person's criminal history, treatment record, and reputation as developed through character witness statements, testimony, or other character evidence, that the person will not likely act in a manner dangerous to public safety and that granting the relief would not be contrary to the public interest, the court shall grant the petition. Any person denied relief by the general district court may petition the circuit court for a de novo review of the denial. Upon a grant of relief in any court, the court shall enter a written order granting the petition, in which event the provisions of subsection A do not apply. The clerk of court shall certify and forward forthwith to the Central Criminal Records Exchange, on a form provided by the Exchange, a copy of any such order.
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Old February 14, 2013, 11:08 PM   #7
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Read Part 'A' in overhead's link, as well as the link in part 'A' that takes you to the text of "§ 37.2-805. Voluntary admission."

I don't think that your case (voluntary participation in outpatient counseling after your TDO) satisfies the requirements for revoking your gun rights.
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Old February 15, 2013, 09:33 AM   #8
SlowHuck
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I deeply appreciate your prompt replies. However, "Contact an attorney." is the response that I most feared. I did so early on in this process, and was quoted a minimum of $500 for a consultation. Far out of reach of my means at the moment. And at this point, the $50 nonrefundable application fee for the CHP is also too much of a crapshoot for me to chance. Much less than a five-year jail term for illegally possessing a firearm.

From the Virginia State Police Firearms Purchase Eligibility Test:

"A person who answers "yes" to any of the below questions may be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm pursuant to state and/or federal law.

13. Have you ever been the subject of a temporary detention order and subsequently agreed to voluntarily admission for mental health treatment?

From the Virginia State Police CHP application permit page:

Persons Not Qualified to Obtain a Permit:

18. An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.

And finally, from the CHP application itself:

B. HAVE YOU BEEN COMMITTED TO THE CUSTODY OF THE COMMISSIONER OF BEHAVIORAL HEALTH AND DEVELOPMENTAL SERVICES?
IF YES, COMPLETE FORM 2 PART A PAGE 2 ( SEE NOTICE 4 PAGE 3)

FORM 2
PART A COMMITMENTS TO THE COMMISSIONER OF BEHAVIORAL HEALTH AND DEVELOPMENTAL SERVICES
DATE OF COMMITMENT:_______________ DATE YOU WERE RELEASED FROM CUSTODY:_________________________________ NAME OF COURT WHICH ENTERED THE ORDER: __________________________________________________________________
LOCATION OF COURT (INCLUDE STREET ADDRESS, CITY, COUNTY, AND STATE) _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ HAVE YOUR FIREARM RIGHTS BEEN RESTORED BY A COURT? YES NO
IF YES, HAVE FIVE YEARS ELAPSED SINCE THE DATE OF RESTORATION? YES NO
IF YES, ATTACH SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION.

Now that I review that last part, I am somewhat encouraged. I was not "COMMITTED," I was merely detained for observation. But the language from the VSP website still has me concerned.

Maybe I need to just take a refrain from all the legalese I have been consuming (which is conspiring to turn my brain into mush), collect the appropriate documentation and take a look at things with a clear mind.

I am still pretty angry about the whole situation.

Again, thank you for your replies.
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:08 AM   #9
overhead
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With the risks involved with something like this (jail time, fines, etc) I would not move forward without an attorney. Your other option maybe to contact the state police directly to see if you are eligible to purchase a firearm. I am not sure how helpful they will be or can be, but it is worth a shot.

A family member committed a non-violent felony years ago and had his rights restored in Virginia. Unfortunately, his felony was reported to the federal system at some point so he still cannot purchase a firearm or legally possess one because the ATF has not funded any type of restoration of rights program for years. I certainly hope nothing was reported to the Feds or you maybe SOL. Good luck.
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:25 AM   #10
Spats McGee
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Welcome to The Firing Line, SlowHuck!

As overhead noted, moving forward without an attorney is a precarious move, at the very least. Ordinarily, when we get these kinds of "help me with legal stuff threads," I post the following bits of advice:
  • You do need an attorney.
  • You do need an attorney well-versed in both criminal law and firearms law, on the federal and state levels.
  • You do not need to post lots of details of your situation on a public internet forum, however well-meaning said enthusiasts may be.
  • You do not need legal advice on a serious, potentially life-altering situation from a bunch of anonymous gun enthusiasts over the internet.
  • The things that you tell your attorney are confidential.
  • The things that you post on internet forums are not.

If I find these threads before they get too far, I often close them. However, this one has gotten far enough along that I will leave it open, should you decide to go in and edit your post.

I am an attorney, so I know how expensive attorneys are. However, you need to balance the cost of an attorney against the risk of whatever paths you are considering. You should also contact your local bar association and ask if there are any programs by which low-income folks can get some legal assistance. You may or may not qualify, but if you do not ask, then you will never know.
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:33 AM   #11
ScottRiqui
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Ditto on the value of an attorney. But in the meantime, I'd still like to know if you've actually received *any* kind of notification from the the state of Virginia that your gun rights have in fact been revoked? Or are you just getting yourself spun up over the possibility that you've lost them?

If the only mental health care you received after your TDO was voluntary outpatient counseling, then you were not "admitted", you were not "committed", and you were not in a "residential setting". All of those terms refer to inpatient treatment at a mental health facility. Voluntary outpatient counseling shouldn't affect your rights under anything you listed in your second post.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:43 PM   #12
SlowHuck
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@Spats McGee:

Thank you so much for your response. All very good advice. Especially because it did not come with a price tag.

I would preferred that my original post remain intact. I am confident of my anonymity on this forum and would hope that this discussion be of benefit to future subscribers.

But once again, the advice that I need an attorney creates an insurmountable obstacle to reestablishing my Second Amendment rights. I will, upon your recommendation, contact my local Bar Association to determine whether free or low-cost representation is available.

@ScottRiqui:

I was never notified of anything. I am asking these questions to prevent losing my application fee and/or violating the law. Although your arguments regarding my situation are rational, I am still not comfortable with moving forward without some clarification in the gray areas. Also, with all due respect, please review point 4 of the previous post.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:58 PM   #13
SlowHuck
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Oh, I missed this earlier...

From the CHP application:

D. HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLUNTARILY ADMITTED TO A FACILITY OR ORDERED TO MANDATORY OUTPATIENT TREATMENT, OR WERE YOU THE SUBJECT OF A TEMPORARY DETENTION ORDER PURSUANT TO VA. CODE § 37.2-809 WHO LATER AGREED TO VOLUNTARY ADMISSION UNDER VA. CODE § 37.2-805? IF YES, COMPLETE FORM 2PAGE2ASINDICATEDBELOW. (SEENOTICE4PAGE3)
1. COMPLETE PART C OF FORM 2 PAGE 2 IF INVOLUNTARILY ADMITTED
2. COMPLETE PART D OF FORM 2 PAGE 2 IF ORDERED TO MANDATORY OUTPATIENT TREATMENT
3. COMPLETE PART E OF FORM 2 PAGE 2 IF VOLUNTARILY ADMITTED SUBSEQUENT TO A TEMPORARY DETENTION ORDER
YES NO

PART C INVOLUNTARY ADMISSIONS
DATE INVOLUNTARILY ADMITTED: ________________________ DATE RELEASED FROM THIS ADMISSION:____________________ NAME OF COURT WHICH ENTERED THE ORDER: __________________________________________________________________
LOCATION OF COURT (INCLUDE STREET ADDRESS, CITY, COUNTY, AND STATE) ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ HAVE YOUR FIREARM RIGHTS BEEN RESTORED BY A COURT? YES NO
IF YES, HAVE FIVE YEARS ELAPSED SINCE THE DATE OF RESTORATION? YES NO
IF YES, ATTACH SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION.

It seems as though the right to legally carry is going to cost me.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:18 PM   #14
Strafer Gott
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If you were not arrested, or been confined, or otherwise informed of your loss of rights, what is the question? If you didn't get your card revoked, why would it be a problem. I would not anticipate a problem, where none exists.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:36 PM   #15
SlowHuck
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So what about question D part 1 in the above post? Might that be cause for concern? I was not arrested, but I was confined and admitted.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
So what about question D part 1 in the above post? Might that be cause for concern? I was not arrested, but I was confined and admitted.
"Admitted" or "admission" means that you were admitted to inpatient treatment at a mental health facility. In other words, you were living at the mental facility as a patient.

If I understand everything you've told us so far, that wasn't the case. You volunteered for outpatient counseling, meaning you lived at home and went on your own to go see a doctor/counselor when it was time for your appointment, right?

The time spent under observation during your TDO doesn't count as "being admitted". That's the whole reason we have TDOs - so that doctors can keep someone safe and evaluate them for a short period of time without the stigma and legal ramifications that come with an involuntary admission to a mental health facility.

As you read through all of these laws, remember that your outpatient treatment was voluntary, NOT mandatory, and that you were never admitted to a mental health facility for inpatient treatment. With that in mind, I haven't seen a law or rule posted here yet that applies to you.
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Old February 15, 2013, 06:06 PM   #17
SlowHuck
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I knowledge your point. The fact is that I was "involuntarily admitted." not just "admitted."

It is the language on the CHP form that has me concerned. I neither want to throw $50 to the wind, nor perjure myself.

I have read VA. CODE § 37.2-809 and the event pretty much falls in that category.
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Old February 15, 2013, 06:06 PM   #18
Vanya
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SlowHuck,

You need a lawyer.

And, truly, you need not to be posting details of your situation on the internet. If you had a lawyer, he or she would tell you that. What you put up online is not as anonymous as you think.

If you're a member of the NRA, they'll refer you to a 2A-friendly attorney in your area. You'll be on your own with negotiating fees, but at least you'll know you're dealing with someone sympathetic.

The US Concealed Carry Association also has a list of attorneys. It includes several who practice in Virginia.
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Old February 15, 2013, 07:10 PM   #19
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
I knowledge your point. The fact is that I was "involuntarily admitted." not just "admitted."
For cripe's sake - you were NOT "admitted". You were "temporarily detained" - that's why it's called a "Temporary Detention Order". Words have meanings, especially when it comes to the law and medicine. If you had been "admitted", then you would have been living at a mental health facility as a patient, and receiving treatment/therapy while living there.

It's just like being "admitted" to any other type of hospital. Just because you went to the E.R., that doesn't mean you were admitted. If the E.R. doctors say "we're going to admit you for further tests", then you're assigned a room, and you're generally not leaving until you're discharged. THAT'S "admitted".

"Admission" (voluntary or involuntary) is something that happens after the TDO, if it happens at all.

If a TDO by itself were enough to revoke your gun rights, then the laws you're looking at would be much shorter. They rules wouldn't need to talk about stuff like "involuntary admission", "voluntary admission" and "mandatory outpatient treatment".

You were the subject of a TDO, and as a result of the TDO, the doctors decided NOT to involuntarily admit you as a patient at a mental health facility. You did NOT voluntarily admit yourself as a patient at a mental health facility, and you were NOT ordered into mandatory outpatient treatment. You volunteered for outpatient treatment, and voluntary outpatient treatment isn't covered by any of the gun-rights revocation rules.

By all means, see if you can find a gun-savvy Virginia lawyer who will sit you down for ten minutes pro bono. Because right now, you're twisting yourself up over nothing.

Last edited by ScottRiqui; February 15, 2013 at 07:20 PM.
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Old February 15, 2013, 07:45 PM   #20
SlowHuck
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"ten minutes 'pro bono' with a lawyer."

That's funny!

Seriously... now that we seem to have a full-fledged discussion going on, with one side stating 'get a lawyer,' and the other arguing that I have no problem, I am profoundly confused!

So far my search has yielded no local 2A friendly attorney, nor a Bar Association referral. in fact, a few that I were able to contact expressed 'no interest' in helping me!

As far as my lack of anonymity, no worries. Above all else I hope that anybody else unjustly stripped of their Second Amendment rights are guided to a resolution. Hours of Googling landed me on this thread and I hope to leave a larger footprint for others to find. After all, in today's political climate, WE ALL must endeavor to protect our gun rights.
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Old February 15, 2013, 08:58 PM   #21
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
Above all else I hope that anybody else unjustly stripped of their Second Amendment rights are guided to a resolution.
Right now, you have no reason at all to believe that you have in fact lost your gun rights in Virginia.

And I'm not saying that you don't need a lawyer. But you're making it sound like that's out of the question, so I'm trying to help you understand the simpler parts of the law.

Re-read all of the laws and statutes posted here so far, using your assumption that being subject to a TDO is the same thing as being "involuntarily admitted" to a mental health facility, and I think you'll realize that they don't make any sense under your assumption.
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Old February 15, 2013, 09:58 PM   #22
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowHuck
"ten minutes 'pro bono' with a lawyer."

That's funny!

Seriously... now that we seem to have a full-fledged discussion going on, with one side stating 'get a lawyer,' and the other arguing that I have no problem, I am profoundly confused!
You are confused because you are not paying attention to what you are being told. ScottRiqui is correct. Based on what you have told us here in this thread, the law does NOT disqualify you. Your 3 days under "observation" (not "treatment") pursuant to the TDO was NOT an admission to an in-patient treatment facility. That WAS the TDO. After the TDO, you were NOT admitted anywhere for treatment, and apparently you were not involuntarily assigned to "mandatory" out-patient therapy/treatment.

Therefore, the law does not apply to you.

Quote:
So far my search has yielded no local 2A friendly attorney, nor a Bar Association referral. in fact, a few that I were able to contact expressed 'no interest' in helping me!
If you cannot afford to hire an attorney, try searching Google for "legal aid." If you meet their income criteria, they'll assist you for free, or at a very low rate based on a sliding scale.

Quote:
As far as my lack of anonymity, no worries. Above all else I hope that anybody else unjustly stripped of their Second Amendment rights are guided to a resolution. Hours of Googling landed me on this thread and I hope to leave a larger footprint for others to find. After all, in today's political climate, WE ALL must endeavor to protect our gun rights.
You have not been stripped of your Second Amendment rights. The law does not disqualify you, but you are not willing to apply for a permit. That's your problem, not the law's problem.
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Old February 16, 2013, 12:28 AM   #23
Spats McGee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowHuck
"ten minutes 'pro bono' with a lawyer."

That's funny!
Actually, it's not. Despite common misconceptions, we take our ethical obligations quite seriously. Under the Model Rules of Professional Conduct, all private lawyers are encouraged to do some percentage of their time as pro bono work, or to donate funds to an organization which provides legal services to those who cannot afford them.

Here's Virginia's version:
Quote:
Rule 6.1
Voluntary Pro Bono Publico Service

(a) A lawyer should render at least two percent per year of the lawyer’s professional time to pro bono publico legal services. Pro bono publico services include poverty law, civil rights law, public interest law, and volunteer activities designed to increase the availability of pro bono legal services.
(b) A law firm or other group of lawyers may satisfy their responsibility collectively under this Rule.
(c) Direct financial support of programs that provide direct delivery of legal services to meet the needs described in (a) above is an alternative method for fulfilling a lawyer’s responsibility under this Rule.
Source: The Virginia State Bar: http://www.vsb.org/pro-guidelines/in...ain/print_view

You are by no means required to get a lawyer, but there is some possibility that a lawyer could help your confusion. At least check with these folks: http://www.valegalaid.org/
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