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Old August 2, 2011, 08:40 AM   #1
Magnum Wheel Man
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I think I got my best Gun Broker deal yet...

I've been collecting early black powder cartridge revolvers... mostly "pocket guns" both because the smaller CCW "type" guns interest me more, & I honestly cant afford to collect vintage big bore single actions

in my collection, I have an early 38 S&W H&R top break hand ejector, with the early filigreed type hard rubber grips... I've been on the hunt for a 32 S&W model of the same gun... Gun Broker has had one listed for around the last 6-8 months, with the seller listing it originally for like $350.00 ish... way, way more than I paid for my 38 ( which I got a good deal on BTW ) but the 32 was even in worse shape, even though it was priced almost double what I paid for the 38...

well that gun didn't sell, so the seller relisted it, repeatedly, dropping the price like $20.00 every month or so... last listing, it was at $199.00 & pretty quickly got a bid... I was bumming... I didn't want to pay that much for it... before getting into a bidding war, in desperation, I did one last Gun Broker search...

... low & behold I found another listed as a black powder revolver ( same gun though ) in better shape, than the other listed... plus with the one I newly found, I was high bidder at $32.00 with only one day left to go... I ended up buying it for $43.00... it's cool to be able to add something needed to my already pretty complete collection for such a thrifty price... it's pre 1898 so no FFL fees even though the seller wants it to go to an FFL ( my dealer doesn't charge me for recieving antiques )... what do ya think ???

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Old August 2, 2011, 09:37 AM   #2
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What's the actual caliber of that critter, and can you get 'em?
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Old August 2, 2011, 10:51 AM   #3
doofus47
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Best GB buy ever?

You win.

nice catch. I've found very good prices on items when the seller mis-spells the name. I picked up a "biathalon" rifle for about $300 when the list of regular "biathlon" rifles was going for minimum 400.

And none of us thought that spelling mattered back in school.....
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Old August 2, 2011, 11:35 AM   #4
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That's a nice one. Caliber is .32 S&W Jim.
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Old August 2, 2011, 11:48 AM   #5
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Nice deal.
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Old August 2, 2011, 11:58 AM   #6
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Magnum Wheel Man,
Nice catch at a very good price. That one is a 1st Model 1st Variation "SHELL EXTRACTING" aka "MANUAL EJECTOR". I've got two examples in my collection, in about the same condition. These are fairly rare, as you know - not many show up for sale. Made approximately 1883 - 1887 or '88.
There is a 2nd Model, made after 1890 and has a redesigned frame, taking the H&R patented TARGET LOGO grip panels and a slightly different ejector rod. This one is very rare - I've only seen one and it is in my collection.
What was not known, at least to Bill Goforth and me, until last fall (before Bill's passing in Jan.) is that there is a 1st Model 2nd Variation - and that is what was offered in the auction that you cited starting at $199. That variation has the outward appearance of the 1st Variation but lacks the two guide rods on either side of the extractor rod. This variation was only known from one other example, this one being the 2nd - I got it for $230 +$10 S&H - I'd been watching it for months, watching the opening price dropping. I had to have it to add to the other manual ejectors. The most noticeable difference between the Mod 1 Var 1 is that the Mod 1 Var 2 has the addition of the Oct.4th 1887 patent date to the barrel top rib stamping, while retaining the pre-1890 "floral" pattern grip panels on the older grip frame.
I'm glad you're happy with your acquisition and thanks for not bidding me up on the other piece.
IMG_1734.jpg

IMG_3006.jpg

IMG_3031.jpg
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Old August 2, 2011, 12:05 PM   #7
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As to cartridges suitable for these guns - from the literature as well as end labels from period H&R gun boxes:

.32 CF - .32 S&W and .32 H&R Long (and the similar .32 Merwin & Hulbert)

.38 CF - .38 S&W

All of these were BLACK POWDER loads. H&R didn't "officially" consider their firearms capable of handling smokeless/Nitro powder loads until 1905, when they first advertised that change.
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Old August 2, 2011, 12:50 PM   #8
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That's funny 32 MAG... I've been watching the gun you got for what seems like forever myself... I wasn't wanting to get in a bidding war with ( appearently you ) over the 1st listing... that's when I came accross this other one which started at $0.99 & only had one day left

I got my 38 for like $125.00 there was no way I was paying twice that for a 32 in worse condition

I like the model with the extra pins, I feel the extractor is more reliable that way...

Also I load for this round, have about 1000 cases & load 3 different load levels for the 32 S&W...
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Old August 2, 2011, 01:47 PM   #9
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Mag,
Yes, it is a small world. I saw the other one, also - but having two already and seeing that the vendor had listed it as a C&R and not an antique I passed on it.
The two added guide rods are kind of neat - but the change to a single rod was accomplished by using a 5 sided (pentagonal) rod, making the machining and production cost lower.
The 1st Mod, 2nd Var. - the one I got - has the pentagonal rod with the older frame and grip.
ENJOY you gun - how do they shoot?
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Old August 2, 2011, 02:18 PM   #10
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I haven't recieved my 32 yet... but my 38 shoots really nice ( almost too good ) as I'd like to shoot it more, but try to limit myself to more common models...

my starter load has just a soft lead round ball seated over a quite light load of Trailboss & some of my guns get target grade accuracy out of that load ( although the sights are far from target grade ) this is my new gun test load... balls thrown slowly enough to watch them head to the target... but so far, safe in even my weakest examples in the collection, so long as they time out OK...

next load is a light weight soft lead bullet with a lighter charge of Trailboss this is a medium powered load, safe for all my guns in "good condition" & shoots pretty good MRS MAGNUM really enjoys shooting these 1st 2 loads, with the 1st one being so mellow, that hearing protection isn't a priority

3rd load is a medium weight hard cast bullet with a case full of Trailboss & is not shot much, & only used in the strongest of guns, & only spairingly ( I carry these in my S&W #1.5 as a CCW gun sometimes... the spur trigger snubbie is quite small & light )
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Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; August 2, 2011 at 02:27 PM.
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Old August 3, 2011, 09:59 AM   #11
32 Magnum
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Magnum,
Thanks for the info - how about sending me a couple thousand rounds of your #1 load???? LOL

Don't forget to post pics and info when you get your newly purchased Manual Ejector! I'd enjoy seeing more of these oldies.
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Old August 7, 2011, 02:51 PM   #12
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Here's the pics of the H&R "SHELL EXTRACTING" aka Manual Ejector 1st Model 2nd Variation - 1888-89. It's not much to look at, but it nicely demostrates the transition from the 1st Model Manual Ejector to the 2nd Model. 1st Model is the one with the two guide rods next to the round ejector rod under the extractor star, the old style grip frame and no barrel latch hold open push button. The Model 1 Var. 2 - has a pentagonal ejector rod and no guide rods, still has the old stype grip frame and does have the push button latch hold open. 2nd Model has a NEW grip frame with the patented, new in 1890 "Target Logo" grip panels.

IMG_5133.jpg

IMG_5141.jpg

IMG_5144.jpg
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Old August 15, 2011, 04:29 PM   #13
Magnum Wheel Man
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well my gun smith buddy just called, & my revolver is done... the gun I started the thread about came, & was really in very nice shape, but had some vice marks on it... the reason I assume is the top latch spring was weak... my buddy pulled the gun apart ( appearently as far as the previous owner or whom ever worked on it for him ) & there was a rusty screw that needed to be removed before the gun could be disassembled far enough to inspect the latch spring... a couple days soak with Kroil, & a proper fitting screw driver revealed a flat spring cracked at the retaining screw hole...

my buddy made a new flat spring, & the gun is back together & functioning like new

work is killing me right now, but if I can get over there tomorrow I'll post a few pictures... even the barrel & cylinder are almost like new ( nearly no pits ) an awesome gun for $43.00
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Old August 16, 2011, 03:13 PM   #14
Magnum Wheel Man
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couple pics...

note how long the ejector stroke is on the manual ejector... it's only about 2/3 that on the auto eject models... rumor has it "real" shooters prefered the manual ejectors...





Attached Images
File Type: jpg H&R hand ejector 001.JPG (175.5 KB, 597 views)
File Type: jpg H&R hand ejector 002.JPG (133.6 KB, 741 views)
File Type: jpg H&R hand ejector 003.JPG (117.1 KB, 490 views)
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Old August 17, 2011, 09:02 AM   #15
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Nice Pocket Gun

Magnum Wheel Man

Great pictures. You got a really good deal and a piece of history there. Those little pocket guns were really popular back then for concealed carry. I call the period from 1865 to 1899 the BP Cartridge Era. I have a few of them myself.

Last edited by Slowhand; August 17, 2011 at 09:52 AM. Reason: ..
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Old August 17, 2011, 10:37 AM   #16
Magnum Wheel Man
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nice looking collection Slowhand... I've got about 3 dozen of them & just started to aquire some of the bigger bores... I reciently got a Colt 1917 in 45 ACP... & just picked up a custom replica in 44-40... my Ruger Montados maybe count in 45 Colts
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Old August 17, 2011, 02:52 PM   #17
32 Magnum
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Magnum Wheel Man,
Nice looking piece. Glad you got it all together and working. Nice to see these old fellers working, again.
Nice pics.
How about some info on your other H&Rs? I'm always looking for more info - keeps the researcher inside me awake.
IMG_3020.jpg

IMG_3013.jpg

IMG_3014.jpg
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Old August 17, 2011, 03:01 PM   #18
Magnum Wheel Man
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you could write a book 32... I love the comparision pics
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Old August 17, 2011, 07:00 PM   #19
32 Magnum
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Mag Man,
I took over 2200 pics for research purposes while working with the late Bill Goforth on his H&R book. Many of my pics will be found in that book when it hits the shelves, hopefully before the end of the year. Final editing, fact checking and verifications - plus some stuff that came up shortly before or shortly after Bill's passing was added - and the draft is back in the hands of the publisher.
I've got "lots" of comparison pics - helped Bill see the differences between variations of the same model. Some of those changes are/were very subtle. I'm glad to share them - they don't do anybody any good sitting in my computer files.

p.s. I still agree that you got the BEST deal on your Hand Ejector. Here's a pic of one I almost forgot about - this one has Gold wash in the cylinder flutes and on all the screw and pin heads, front sight and latch grasping knobs. Looks better in person than in the pics.

IMG_1735.jpg

IMG_1736.jpg

Last edited by 32 Magnum; August 17, 2011 at 07:07 PM.
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Old August 18, 2011, 05:42 AM   #20
Magnum Wheel Man
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that looks nice... I just caught a gold accented 22 H&R on G.B. for sale yesterday... I alreay have one ( less the gold ) so probably won't bid on that one

Oooops... looked at it again today, it's a US Revolver not a H&R

BTW... I put the two guns together last night ( my new 32 & my other 38 H&R hand ejectors )... they are nearly identical ( as the 32 is a 6 shot gun on the larger 38 size frame ) the 38 is a 5 shot gun... both sets of grips are perfect, & match very well as far as color goes ( often the color washes out of the older hard rubber grips, & the look brown or some shade between brown & black... both of mine are nicely black

one thing I noticed, was my 38 has a "1/2 cock notch " ( though no where near actually at 1/2 cock ) that holds the firing pin off the primer... the 32 doesn't seem to have that notch... I haven't pulled it apart to see if it's gunked up or worn, but it acts like the models I have that require dropping the hammer between chambers, & the firing pin keeps the cylinder from rotating... with the 38 in it's safe notch, the cylinder will still rotate in one direction...

not sure if the 32 was supposed to have a safe notch or not when new ???

but it's cool that the 2 are both in such good shape & look nearly identical
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Old August 18, 2011, 12:16 PM   #21
Slowhand
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Interesting



Interesting stuff being posted here. I haven't bought anything "new" since January and you guys aren't helping out when it comes to resisting the urge.

While researching an Iver Johnson, .32 Cal Revolver, made prior to 1899. I started running into names like Hopkins and Allen, H&R, F&W, Andrew Fyrberg and W.E. Goforth. On January 9, 2011, Bill identified it as a First Model, made in 1894. I ordered his book on Iver Johnson that same week. A must have for anyone interested in these old revolvers.

The Black Powder Cartridge Era, as I call, it was some interesting times as revolvers evolved from Cap and Ball Percussion. When the Colt and S&W Patents ran out, they lost their monopoly, loads of companies joined in and a lot of little weapons for personal defense got sold in this country.
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Old August 19, 2011, 10:35 AM   #22
32 Magnum
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Slowhand,
Agreed! That is a very interesting era in firearms development. I have some examples of early Harrington & Richardsons (made after the Wesson & Harrington partnership) that I feel are interesting. Included are the AEtna and Victor "off-brands" made by H&R in the 1870s into the 1880s.
Heres's a couple pics to show some of the variety.

IMG_0649_3.jpg

IMG_0669.jpg
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Old August 22, 2011, 07:13 PM   #23
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The "Off Brands" Had Company

32 Magnum

Great Photos of the Off Brands.

The Big Guys were also getting in on the act.



Of course prices were a bit less than they are today.
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Old August 30, 2012, 10:45 PM   #24
castlebrew
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great info here!

This has all been great info! This pic appears to be an H&R 1st Model, 1st Variation SN #3676. Purported to have belonged to a Chicago Police Dept. Officer (relative of Dear Wife's mother), at the time of the Haymarket Riot (May 4, 1886)
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Last edited by castlebrew; August 30, 2012 at 10:56 PM. Reason: just because
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