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Old September 21, 2011, 08:58 AM   #51
Double Naught Spy
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Thanks DNS, great link. I guess that article gives the odds on success in this situation. Not good.
Actually, most of the other articles show very good odds for success. The same can be said for CCW self defense as well. CCW folks get killed on occasion as well.

You don't always need equal force to be successful. Going up against an active shooter is inherently risky whether you are armed or not.

Quote:
Thank you for a thought-provoking thread. I've actually given this some thought, especially after the Tacoma Mall incident.
Great example of a CCW guy at Tacoma mall, Brandan "Dan" McKown, one of at least two who did not stop the shooter. Having a gun didn't help Danny-boy one bit because his tactics sucked. He is one example where an armed CCW person might have just been better of trying to rush the shooter across the mall. He stated that he carried a gun to protect others in just such an incident and when the time came, he didn't know what to do and got shot multiple times as a result.
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Old September 21, 2011, 09:56 AM   #52
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Interesting thread and food for thought.

I think it is also social conditioning. Going back to Glenn's comment on people making a coordinated charge for the attacker, I'm sure I recall that being exactly the case in the relatively recent gun attacks in either India or Pakistan (can't for the life of me remember where it was) where the death toll was far lower than might have been because the people near the shooter turned on him and charged rather than turning and running.

Either way, I think for 99% of people in that situation their reaction will be instinctive rather than reasoned.

I must say I have no idea how I would react, only how I hope I would react...
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Old September 21, 2011, 10:04 AM   #53
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but many environments are actually fairly rich with improvised weapons. Yet I can't recall reading of an incident where people have thrown hard objects, swung hard objects, etc when rushing a shooter.

I knew guys in high school and college who'd start a fight by throwing car keys in somebody's face, or flicking a cigarette lighter towards somebody's face. The distraction usually let them land a few good punches and/or kicks before the other person could react.

(I'm not advocating this for normal social encounters; just saying that there are all sorts of things out there - from pots full of hot coffee, to ketchup bottles, to car keys - that could be put to use in a pinch, with the right mind-set.)
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Old September 21, 2011, 10:21 AM   #54
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When things go bad, all the choices you might have left could be bad, worse, worstest, and somewhere beyond that is "where I am now."

Do the best you can with the adrenaline pumping. If you can't find a tool, go to God using what God gave you.

It's kind of like if you are camping and a bear invades your tent b/c your kids have saved a snicker's bar for a midnight snack (happened to my wife's sister while camping). You're out of good scenarios and options: do the best you can. (In that case, the bear seemed to be completely taken by surprise by 3 howling, waving primates in the cramped space and decided that it was not worth fighting about.)
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Old September 21, 2011, 10:33 AM   #55
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A father killed a black bear that was going after his son last year, by throwing a small log at it. Crushed its skull, IIRC.

I believe the father got cited for improper storage of trash, but not charged with anything.

Of course, the trash could well have been what attracted the bear in the first place.

But back to the main point - a thrown log stopped a bear. Odds are, the father grappling the bear would not have gone so well for the family. If any weapon is available, it probably beats bare hands.
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Old September 21, 2011, 10:52 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Unless you have a trained unit, you really can't expect a bunch of folks to jump up and charge under fire in some organized fashion. Yes, that's a nice internet fantasy but it's not going to happen.
I agree that it's not likely but I'd like to think mans inherent hunting instincts would kick in. If one person steps in and goes for his right side trying to control the weapon, anyone who notices may instinctively go for his left side or back. It's a simple predatory action that is seen in most animals. I may be expecting a bit more from the human race than I normally would but it's a possibility. It may not be organized, but it would increase your chances of success.
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Old September 21, 2011, 11:09 AM   #57
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I support, of course, reasonable efforts to save your life and using improvised weapons.

I fear though that such emphasis weakens the case for campus carry as there are DVDs, etc. full of such.

A planned shooter as compared to a random, irrational person can choose a venue that minimizes such.

I did a little experiment with the flying laptop of death. Two conclusions - you can't throw it that far. Next, in the time it takes to close it, and assume a reasonable throwing posture - a shooter can get off about 7 aimed shots. One will be you when you stand up.

Thus, we should push for carry and training for intensive incidents. Yeah, maybe in the moment - your group will become the 300. Better to have carry.

Yes, it worked in tight spaces with nuts who get into melee distances. Guns are needed for those who are not so irrational.
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Old September 21, 2011, 11:35 AM   #58
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Glenn, I agree, but in the meanwhile we have to work with what we have.
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Old September 21, 2011, 03:59 PM   #59
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Yeah, I would argue that unless an object has clear utility as a bashing or stabbing weapon, you are probably better off forgetting it, if about to be shot at (from rushing range). If you are holding something of little utility as a weapon (keys, wallet, half-empty water bottle, etc), you may want to throw it as a distraction. Reaching for something to throw as a distraction probably wastes more time than it is worth.
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Old August 30, 2012, 03:47 PM   #60
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87S16D20120829
15 year old Robert Wayne Gladden, Jr. fired the first barrel of a double barrel shotgun into the back of a student.

Quote:
A guidance counselor rushed and tackled Gladden when he saw the student produce the gun, but Gladden fired one shot into a crowd of students, striking classmate Daniel Borowy in the back, Batton said.
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Old December 19, 2012, 12:57 PM   #61
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http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/video/caught...gunman-tackled

Robber tackled after firing single shot. In this case, the tackling appears wholly unnecessary, poorly timed, and only by luck did the tackler not get shot, but the gunman never fired a second round and was subdued by the tackler and then others.
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Old December 19, 2012, 01:27 PM   #62
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In a fight for your life, you use what you brung or have at hand. If bare hands are all you have then that is what you use.

My one experience was with an armed intruder into our Condo at Squaw Valley, CA. The guy entered the bedroom from an outside balcony. I bull rushed him under the weapon and pitched him into a snow bank from the second floor.

Heavy crockery plates are excellent Frisbee.s. They also do an amazing amount of damage when they strike a body.

You need to always be aware of potential adversaries. Conversely you need to look for potential weapons as you check for exits.
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Old December 19, 2012, 02:27 PM   #63
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In high school I was a defensive tackle on my football team. I knocked down running backs, receivers, quarterbacks, and blocked kicks.

Now I am old dog with a bad back, the past week or so have been walking with the assistance of a cane (walking stick).

This morning I took my child to a medical appointment and then dropped my little beauty off at school (1st grade). The kids were just sitting down for lunch. If an active-shooter had burst in I could not rush him, my back won't cooperate. And my handguns were left in the car, no CCW allowed in the school.

All I could do is absorb bullets and hope I stopped enough to save my child.
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Old December 20, 2012, 01:14 AM   #64
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I've played out these scenarios in my head quite often. I like to think that situation dependant, I would have the gonads to confront the shooter with my barehands if no escape or other tools of violence were available. One thing I try to live by when dealing with threats was taught to me by some of my former NCO's. "Speed, surprise, and violence of action...' as well as situational awareness. If it's a guy around my size and is with in close proximity, I *think* a good bear hug from behind and tossing him back on his head might disrupt him enough to at least get the gun out of his hands. Pressure points and soft spots would be a quick target. *IF* if I manage to get him to the ground, a good elbow or punch to the nose might increase these odds. Things to consider however is what direction is the shooter in relation to me, what is the intent of the shooter, and what environment is this in? For me personally, a lot of it dependant on whether or not there will be collateral damage from my actions, or lack thereof. Will your actions if failed escalate his force against others? I value my life very much, but I also value others. If it's a daycare or something, you can bet your sweet cheeks I am going to try everything in my capacity to do something. If it's in a food court in a mall and I'm 4 stores down theres not much of a chance me running towards the guy or even trying to sneak up on him will work.

Another thing to note. What is he using as a weapon? Manipulating a rifle/shotgun out of his hands while keeping the gun not pointed at you would certainly be easier than a handgun.

This is ALL pure speculation on my part. There are so many ways to cut this pie, and I honestly have no idea how I would react in a given situation. At the very least however, contemplating it is a form of preparation.

-Max
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Old December 20, 2012, 10:31 AM   #65
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In some combative classes, KISS was the rule. Forget pressure points and soft spots. If you get the guy down, pound him the head repeatedly.

The key to all the tackling is distance. The successful folks could close.

At VT, a student trying the classic football tackle took multiple rounds and died. Other students have taken a round in a nonvital and got to the shooter.

Another argument for FOF - in one, an current Army vet - vaporized me when I decided to go for him. In another, I disarmed someone. Of course, the charge of the FOG may leave something to be desired.
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Old December 20, 2012, 01:28 PM   #66
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The successful folks could close.
Right, and I will state again that this is a dangerous tactic and one that is best used smartly. Many of the more successful events where this has been used has been when the shooter either had a malfunction or was reloading. If you charge an active shooter with a loaded gun who knows you are coming, expect the shooter to try to shoot you.
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Old December 21, 2012, 01:29 AM   #67
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Glenn, I agree with you very much. The more 'primal' (for lack of better words) should be key. However, some soft spots are easy targets, such as the nose or solar plexus. A running and diving tackle, much like a football tackle leaves a lot of time for you to become a target. A bear hug and wrestling style toss IMO would be much more effective. Again, time and place While certainly not as crucial a situation, I encountered some of these things as a bouncer in a college bar. The difference between a guy who knows you are there and a guy who doesn't when you try to grab them up is very different. I think a huge key is trying to disrupt their OODA loop. Regardless, aside from avoidance all together the best bet is some cover and a gun.
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Old December 21, 2012, 09:26 AM   #68
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OODA Loop, Fruit Loop, Loopty Loop. If you are worried about the OODA Loop, then you are worried about the wrong thing. OODA Loops are being continuously disrupted and reset all the time with new stimulus/information. If you are trying to disrupt some bad guy's OODA Loop, then yours has already been severely disrupted.
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Old December 21, 2012, 11:47 AM   #69
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On the ABC news, one argument for 10 round limits was that an inexperienced maniac might take as much 4 sec to reload as compared to one second of a skilled shooter, that gives you time to tackle.

That happened on the LIRR shooting that sent Rep. McCarthy into the antigun movement.

4 sec is probably enough time. But you have to have your act together and unfortunately many freeze up.
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Old December 21, 2012, 05:59 PM   #70
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Yep, and in the Gifford's shooting, tackling was accompanied by somebody slamming a chair into Loughner first, IIRC, undoubtedly slowing his reload.

You probably can't decide to attack after you realize the shooter is reloading and have high expectations of being successful. That decision likely needs to be made in anticipation of the reload so that it may be launched as soon as the reload is recognized.
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Old December 21, 2012, 07:24 PM   #71
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I'm voting with Mleake on this one. Break off the tabletop and get behind it.
Launch the silverware! Make it rain debris. Don't stick around for return fire.
Be that animal.
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Old December 22, 2012, 01:09 AM   #72
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protect life rICHARD dONSTON

tackling works when a distraction occurs that buys you the time to cross the distance.
Im former law enforcement. for the question of do you shoot a shooter in the crowd that is firing at a principle, at the peril of striking a by-stander. short answer is yes. to save a life or lives.
Now, you can spin a bunch of circumstantial scenarios some of wich may lead to "no", and many more that are maybe's.
To protect life, and acting in good faith, it is never wrong to use deadly force. The shoot scenario will be evaluated based on circumstances. THIS IS WHY YOU MUST HAVE A PERSONAL POLICY AS TO WHEN YOU WILL USE DEALY FORCE. BEFORE YOU GO OUT THE DOOR. To save a life is mine.

police do not respond so quickly. The fight would have been over for sometime by the time they get there. If you shoot someone, wait at the scene, reholster your weapon, and show your hands to police, comply with directions, and let them know you have a holstered weapon (in your waist band). FOLLOW DIRECTIONS.
wHEN THEY SECURE THE SCENE YOU HAVE QUESTIONS TO ANSWER. Explain what occured. If an overbearing cop puts unwarranted presure on you, its ussually a good time to ask for an attorney.
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Old January 17, 2013, 08:37 PM   #73
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http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...322/-1/SITEMAP

This was interesting. A gunman in the City of Newburgh in NYS attempted to rob a corner store, shooting the clerk in the legs during the robbery. "Bystanders" (which you no longer are once you act, LOL) tackled the gunman and beat (including kicked) him and managed to disarm him along the way.

Quote:
“They were beating him and beating him,” Woody said.
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Old July 23, 2013, 11:49 AM   #74
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http://www.ozarksfirst.com/story/nor...AEC79jRcfC5Fcw

A church in Northwood, MO church service was interrupted by a gunman who entered the church...

Quote:
He just came in and waved a gun and fired a shot and that's when I jumped at him.
He was immediately setup by a member, tackled to the ground, disarmed several members, and apparently held for the cops. The pastor will be beefing up security...of which I take it that there was none.
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Old July 23, 2013, 04:15 PM   #75
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When I studied CQC we would fight over rubber guns a couple of things I noticed.
-A trained person could usually get out of the line of fire and strip a gun from an untrained person, if their was an opportunity.
-A trained gun holder could most always keep a person in the line of fire.
-A group could strip a gun from a trained person but the gun will probably be empty by the time they get it. The best thing a group could do is try to keep the gun low under chest cavities.

This was in rubber gun play land, so take it with a grain of salt.
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