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Old August 28, 2012, 11:06 AM   #26
Tom Servo
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Quote:
One social consequence of OC is that as people see it, they become accustomed to it. Another can be that POs get used to it.
Another consequence is that my bank banned all carry following an incident with a guy who chose to make his point about the 2nd Amendment on a busy Friday. Gee, thanks for that.

Quote:
People said the same thing about Rosa Parks,,,
I've said it before: the Rosa Parks comparisons are distasteful and inaccurate. Blacks were denied equal treatment in many areas of life for no other reason than the way they were born. They had no control over that factor. They couldn't stop being black.

There's a big difference between that and someone simply being indiscreet in how they choose to perform a certain action.
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Old August 28, 2012, 11:30 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
...Indeed. One social consequence of OC is that as people see it, they become accustomed to it. Another can be that POs get used to it...
Another is that enough people say to themselves, "A nut job with a gun; there ought to be a law." that we wind up with a law we don't much like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
...OC has not been prohibited by law in Ohio going back at least two decades. ...It took people pressing the point to start to change the culture so that Ohioans don't end up with a felony conviction for exercising a right in ordinary circumstances....
Two decades is pushing it. I think the 2003 decision of the Ohio Supreme Court in Klein v. Leis, 99 Ohio St.3d 537 had more to do with it.
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Old August 28, 2012, 11:46 AM   #28
aarondhgraham
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Hello Tom Servo,,,

I certainly did not mean to be distasteful in my reference to Rosa Parks,,,
I used Rosa Parks as a comparator to show how a well thought out and planned demonstration can work wonders for a cause.

My intent was to show her actions as successful in the long run because they were not some person trying to make a hasty statement or provoke an ill planned confrontation.

I will not do it (make a plan to confront) because I am not a proponent of open carry,,,
Those who are could certainly be more effective than the people in that video.

I have stated several times that I am glad that my state (Oklahoma) has legalized open carry,,,
But I doubt very seriously if I will ever take advantage of the new law.

Oklahoma is going to be an interesting place come November 1st,,,
I sincerely hope the situation is handled calmly and sanely.

Aarond

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Old August 28, 2012, 11:49 AM   #29
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Quote:
I certainly did not mean to be distasteful in my reference to Rosa Parks
No, but I know many open carry advocates who do. As a friend once pointed out, "there's a difference between a woman fighting oppression and a fat white dude strutting around with a gun."

I also once had an advocate yell, actually yell, at me that he wasn't going to hide in the attic like Helen Keller when the Nazis came.

The problem with the "movement" is that it really does attract folks from the fringe, and there's little way of controlling the more extreme elements. Case in point: JT Ready and his actions at last year's Occupy rallies.
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Old August 28, 2012, 12:05 PM   #30
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I have to say the first video was pretty awesome, the cop owned those kids. It's nice to see someone who understands the law and applies it correctly.
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Old August 28, 2012, 12:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarondhgraham
I certainly did not mean to be distasteful in my reference to Rosa Parks,,,
I used Rosa Parks as a comparator to show how a well thought out and planned demonstration can work wonders for a cause....
And you weren't. In fact, you were right on the money when you wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarondhgraham
...Rosa Parks was not a spur of the moment decision,,,
Her actions were planned and scripted well in advance of the act....
A lot of the time when this sort of subject comes up, someone brings up Rosa Parks. Perhaps it should be a corollary to Godwin's Law. In any case, it's apparent that the folks (not you) who bring Mrs. Parks up have no knowledge of the full history of that event.

On 1 December 1955, Rosa Parks was the third African-American since March of that year to be arrested for violating the Montgomery bus segregation law. That night, Jo Ann Robinson, head of the Women's Political Council, printed and circulated a flyer throughout Montgomery's black community starting the call for a boycott of Montgomery's city buses.

Martin Luther King, Jr., as president of the Montgomery Improvement Association and pastor of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church, together with other Black community leaders, then organized the boycott of the Montgomery bus system. That boycott reduced Black ridership (the bulk of the bus system's paying customers) of Montgomery city buses by some 90% until December of 1956 when the Supreme Court ruled that the bus segregation laws of Montgomery, Alabama were unconstitutional (Gayle v. Browder, 352 U.S. 903 (1956)).

Mrs. Parks actions and arrest were part of a well orchestrated, well organized, program leading to a successful conclusion.
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Old August 28, 2012, 12:25 PM   #32
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On this whole subject of "baiting the police"...sorry but...sometimes that's required.

The number one area where this is happening involves cameras, not guns. As one example is this incident (and yeah, both links are about the same case):

http://www.pixiq.com/article/man-arr...ops-in-florida

http://www.pixiq.com/article/tampa-c...000-settlement

That website ("Photography Is Not A Crime") has shown several videos wherein the cops went far over the line - threatening unarmed cameramen with drawn guns. The single worst was in Miami - and we have the video only because the handcuffed cameraman managed to slip the micro-SD memory card out of his cellphone (crushed by a police boot) while handcuffed and get it into his mouth(!).

As to the police site noting that some of the OC people are using left-wing-sourced tactics that veer into "Occupy" territory, I have a message for him:



We had at least six guns in camp at OccupyTucson that I know of (and Tucson PD knew of at least two, mine included) and gee, in stark contrast to Oakland California, NYC and the like we had zero instances of police violence.
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Old August 28, 2012, 12:35 PM   #33
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I would like to address 2 points from first-hand, personal experience.

First, having OC'd a fair bit in 3 different states, the public response was almost entirely positive. As someone pointed out, there are probably those who disapprove, but don't say anything. I'm Ok with that; the passive anti's realize that they can't have everything their way, and probably don't even vote. From the perspective of impending legislation, I'm not afraid of them.

Second, I'm curious what exactly Rob means by "activism". I could go either way on that one, depending on the exact definition. Picking fights with cops seems like an all around bad idea to me. Organized, peaceful, political protests seem like a good idea to me. But my take on the term is neither of those. Again, my decision to OC derived directly from my personal experiences, as follows: I had a great childhood, but neither guns nor politics featured greatly in my family. Throughout my adult years, I was pretty much oblivious to firearms in general. I remember hearing about CCW laws in the news once or twice, but I was still quite surprised when I learned that my nephew, a big-city leo, carried off-duty. When I decided to buy my first gun, it was a spur-of-the-moment decision, just because I wanted a new toy. At that time I had no intention of carrying either concealed or open. However, I was aware that there were some laws on the subject, and that guns are intrinsically dangerous, so I proceeded to educate myself in all aspects of my new hobby. Six months later I suddenly looked around and noticed that I had become passionate about self-defense and gun rights. Therefore, my approach to OC as "activism" is to educate the public who are pro-gun but don't know it yet, to inform them that they are allowed to carry and that they will be in good company when they do.
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Old August 28, 2012, 12:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
It's a funny thing, but it is in fact reality, that if enough people do something that's legal but they do it in a way that enough other people find obnoxious, the activity probably won't stay legal for long.
Either that, or an alternative will become legal.

Until a few years ago, the state of Ohio did not have any provision for concealed carry. But the Ohio Supreme Court had (correctly) ruled several years ago that under the Ohio constitution, the RKBA is guaranteed and that, therefore, if the legislature chose to "regulate" carry by not allowing concealed carry, then open carry must necessarily be legal.

So "activists" began staging open carry days around that state. Some people did find them obnoxious, others found them frightening, and still others found them enlightening. The end result was that the legislature realized the folly of its ways, and enacted concealed carry legislation as an expedient way of making all the open carriers go away.

Most of them have, indeed, obtained permits and now carry concealed. However, open carry remains legal in Ohio (as it is in Pennsylvania) without a permit, and a percentage of those who carry regularly do so openly, by choice.

Choosing to open carry in order to make a point is not always or necessarily bad.
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Old August 28, 2012, 12:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
...Until a few years ago, the state of Ohio did not have any provision for concealed carry. But the Ohio Supreme Court had (correctly) ruled several years ago that under the Ohio constitution, the RKBA is guaranteed and that, therefore, if the legislature chose to "regulate" carry by not allowing concealed carry, then open carry must necessarily be legal.

So "activists" began staging open carry days around that state. Some people did find them obnoxious, others found them frightening, and still others found them enlightening. The end result was that the legislature realized the folly of its ways, and enacted concealed carry legislation as an expedient way of making all the open carriers go away.
...

Choosing to open carry in order to make a point is not always or necessarily bad.
But as usual, the devil is in the details. All that worked in Ohio because the RKBA advocates had the foundation of the favorable Ohio Supreme Court ruling (which was in 2003,BTW).




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Old August 28, 2012, 01:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zukiphile
...OC has not been prohibited by law in Ohio going back at least two decades. ...It took people pressing the point to start to change the culture so that Ohioans don't end up with a felony conviction for exercising a right in ordinary circumstances....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Two decades is pushing it. I think the 2003 decision of the Ohio Supreme Court in Klein v. Leis, 99 Ohio St.3d 537 had more to do with it.
The court in Klein did confirm that OC was legal under the then existing statutory scheme. In recognising this it upheld Ohio's effective ban on concealed carry. However there was not a general statutory prohibition on OC prior to the decision in Klein. It was a matter of police policy to charge and prosecute OC as concealed carry.

People in Ohio marched for the purpose of confirming that right and confronting a police culture that too often viewed a person armed as a problem. Subsequent to those demonstrations, a concealed carry law passed.

It isn't an inexorable result of activism that you will get laws we dislike.

EDITED TO ADD -Frank Ettin, Aquila Blanca appears to have the sequence of events correct. The OC marches worked politically because there was significant political will to challenge police conduct judicially, and the heavy hand of police organisations politically.

Remember that the decision in Klein affirmed the constitutionality of concealed carry prohibitions. It isn't obvious that such a decision would be an unambiguous aid to concealed carry advocates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
As a friend once pointed out, "there's a difference between a woman fighting oppression and a fat white dude strutting around with a gun."
Indeed, there are many differences, but they aren't pertinent where Parks' name is invoked as an example of pressing for recognition of a right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
The problem with the "movement" is that it really does attract folks from the fringe, and there's little way of controlling the more extreme elements.
You get this with free speech and non-establishment advocacy too. I suppose it would be more comfortable to argue the merits of a wide zone of carry freedom if only PLUs were involved and we limited actions to letters to the editor from our offices. Yet, life always seems messier.

You might not feel comfortable at the sight of advocacy from the weirdo in camo trousers, bandana for a hat and an obtuse manner, but the OC right isn't a right if he can't exercise it too.

Last edited by zukiphile; August 28, 2012 at 01:25 PM.
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Old August 28, 2012, 01:31 PM   #37
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The average American supports the RKBA which is why we have seen a steady return of rights in most places. However, the pendulum of public opinion can very quickly swing the other way and self serving politicians will once again seek ways to deny our freedoms.
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I don't believe that actually, not in the OC context. It should be remembered that, before the current limitations on firearms, it was common for municapilities to ban carry or display of firearms. At least thats what Hollywood tells me.

Having said that, I think OC is just fine if its SASS arms and appropriate gear, including spurs that jingle jangle jingle.
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Old August 28, 2012, 01:34 PM   #38
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
As a friend once pointed out, "there's a difference between a woman fighting oppression and a fat white dude strutting around with a gun."
...Indeed, there are many differences, but they aren't pertinent where Parks' name is invoked as an example of pressing for recognition of a right...
They are indeed pertinent when Mrs. Parks is invoked as an example of successful activism. The differences are pertinent because they illustrate how the details make a difference between effective activism based on public demonstrations and ineffective or counter productive activism based on public demonstrations.

The details, timing, legal background, charismatic leadership and public attitude all matter a great deal. I've alluded to that in post 36 with reference to Ohio. There the demonstrations could work because the legislature's hand was effectively forced by an Ohio Supreme Court ruling. While as you note:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
...the decision in Klein affirmed the constitutionality of concealed carry prohibitions. It isn't obvious that such a decision would be an unambiguous aid to concealed carry advocates...
that decision also unequivocally affirmed the legality of open carry.

Some of the details of Rosa Parks' success were discussed in post 31. As far as the invocation of Rosa Parks goes: different times, different causes, different social, political and legal climates.

When Rosa Parks shook things up, her actions won wide support in editorials in major newspapers, from pulpits in houses of worship across the country and on college campus.

The Civil Rights Movement of the '50s was the culmination of 100+ years of abolitionist and civil rights activity. It had broad and deep support. The goals of the Civil Rights Movement were promoted regularly in sermons in churches and synagogues all across the nation. The Civil Rights Movement had charismatic leaders like Martin Luther King who could inspire the country.

During the days of the Civil Rights Movement of the '50s and '60s, civil disobedience, as favorably reported by the mainstream media, and as favorably commented upon on college campuses and in sermons in houses of worship across the nation, helped generate great public sympathy for the cause. That sympathy helped lead to the election of pro-civil rights legislators and executives. And that led to the enactment of pro-civil rights laws.

How has the public thus far responded to the thus far minimal "civil disobedience" of RKBA advocates? Where have there been any great outpourings of sympathy for the plight of gun owners, especially from non-gun owners -- as whites showed sympathy for the plight of non-whites during the days of the Civil Rights Movement? Where are the editorials in the New York Times and Washington Post lauding the courage of gun owners in their resistance to the oppression of anti-gun prejudice? Who has heard a pro-gun rights sermon in his church? Where are the pro-gun rights rallies on college campuses? Where are non-gun owners joining with gun owners in pro-gun rights demonstrations, just as whites joined with non-whites in marches and demonstrations during the Civil Rights Movement? Where are our charismatic leaders inspiring the nation?
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Old August 28, 2012, 01:53 PM   #39
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I have OC'd while fishing and hunting without a problem for many years until someone in St. Pete used the OC while fishing excuse on St. Pete pier but had no intention of fishing. Now each time we attempt to launch the boat while OC'ing we are confronted by a police officer. IMO we should let the courts settle the matter because each and every time that there is a so called "Open Carry Walk" in my area they receive mostly negative press. I just returned from Phoenix, Tucson and Marana Az., an open carry state, and in the three weeks I was there I only saw two maybe three people OC'ing in public. I don't support the flagrant violation of any laws whether they are unconstitional or not. There is a legal route that can be taken to have them overturned/repealed.
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Old August 28, 2012, 01:56 PM   #40
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Rant on. Standby 3, 2, 1 ...

So why do OC gun advocates show up at political rallies and events organized by media demagogues with the spoken intention of intimidating politicians with the so-called 2nd amendment solution? Don't tell me it didn't happen. It was on national tv. Oh that's right, it's just one of the uncontrollable splinter groups, led by some clown kicked off the clown show for not being funny anymore. Sure puts the banana in " Banana Republic" for me.

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Old August 28, 2012, 01:56 PM   #41
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Agreed. Plus a protest of 500 people with holsters on their belt sans guns to me is a much better statement that the usual "wackjob with a rifle near the school Won't someone think of the childrenz!!!" article those seem to generate.
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Old August 28, 2012, 02:00 PM   #42
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Quote:
Part of the problem is that those of us who are unsure of the merits of open carry can't seem to have an intelligent conversation about the idea without being accused of being turncoats to the 2nd Amendment.
Part of that is our own fault. I read the entire thread twice and the OP a couple of more times. Although I agreed with the argument in the OP, something was bothering me; I finally realized it was this language:

Quote:
The best way to do that 99% of the time is Concealed Carry. Even if people do choose to Open Carry ...
This is a value judgement that is unnecessary to persuasively making the points in the OP. And saying 'you're 99% wrong, but let's talk' probably does not foster a productive dialogue.
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Old August 28, 2012, 02:05 PM   #43
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EDIT TO ADD - The point of posting on this issue isn't to add heat on an issue of political tactics, but to explore the reasoning behind the positions. It seems likely that people who disagree on this work from different experiences. That doesn't seem like a compelling reason to take any part of the discussion personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
that decision also unequivocally affirmed the legality of open carry.
That is exactly correct - it affirmed an existing right under Ohio code, a statutory and constitutional right widely ignored by Ohio PDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
As far as the invocation of Rosa Parks goes: different times, different causes, different social, political and legal climates.
Frank, no one disputes that there are differences between Parks and OC activists. Since they are cited for their similarities, those are pertinent to an analogy. There was public resistence to each, and each was raised in public awareness beyond the unreasonable objections of opponents by people who asserted their rights.

Each movement had undesirable elements. Each had people sympathetic to the cause who didn't need the expansion of the right. (I don't carry, and so far as I know Alan Gura doesn't. It is inconvenient.)

If you think it distinguishes the analogy beyond any use that this issue isn't a prominant feature of the agenda at church, we disagree on that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
The details, timing, legal background, charismatic leadership and public attitude all matter a great deal. I've alluded to that in post 36 with reference to Ohio. There the demonstrations could work because the legislature's hand was effectively forced by an Ohio Supreme Court ruling.
Frank, with due respect, I don't believe you have correctly measured the politics of the period in Ohio. Affirmation of the existing Ohio OC right was a fortuitous consequence of a push for concealed carry reform, but recognition of OC itself would tend to relieve the political pressure for concealed carry.

Instead, Klein, the concealed carry law and the activism that seeks recognition by PDs who are not always quick to observe robustly the full range of a person's rights are all consequences of the same push to liberalisation.

I have no reason to doubt that OC has had set-backs in some places, but directly attributing those set-backs to exercise of the right, rather than to people opposed to the right itself, is problemmatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
How has the public thus far responded to the thus far minimal "civil disobedience" of RKBA advocates?
In Ohio, we passed a concealed carry law.

Last edited by zukiphile; August 28, 2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old August 28, 2012, 02:24 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
As far as the invocation of Rosa Parks goes: different times, different causes, different social, political and legal climates.
Frank, no one disputes that there are differences between Parks and OC activists. Since they are cited for their similarities, those are pertinent to an analogy. There was public resistence to each, and each was raised in public awareness beyond the unreasonable objections of opponents by people who asserted their rights...
But the differences are very material to how and why certain tactics worked for the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s. As I outlined, with regard to the Civil Rights Movement it mattered a great deal who and where the opposition was and who and where the support was. The scope and depth of the support for racial equality was very material to making the tactics of the Movement work. The active involvement of whites was very material to making the tactics of the Movement work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile
...In Ohio, we passed a concealed carry law.
And in California, even unloaded open carry was outlawed. Tactics must be chosen to fit the realities of the situation.
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Old August 28, 2012, 02:32 PM   #45
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I am on the fence about OC activism(Not OC itself, if it's legal and responsibly done I see no inherent problems with it). In most cases it seems garner negative attention and sends the wrong message.

However, I am curious as to what people think about a specific situation where I live. Where I live, Nevada, OC is legal, and and there are state preemptions on firearms law, to the effect that only the state legislature may make laws regarding firearms.

Now the conundrum. Police stations are public buildings, with no law against OC in them. In general, the police in Las Vegas have accepted OC, until you try to OC into a police station. There are a handful of people who do OC activism by OC'ing while they have business at the police stations. Good, bad, ugly?

Personally, I think this is an extra grey area. There have been successful campaigns in getting other parts of the local governments to adhere to the law. DMVs and other public buildings/property now properly allow open carry after letter writing and other forms of political action. However, Las Vegas Metro PD never got on board.
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Old August 28, 2012, 02:57 PM   #46
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Quote:
So why do OC gun advocates show up at political rallies and events organized by media demagogues with the spoken intention of intimidating politicians with the so-called 2nd amendment solution? Don't tell me it didn't happen. It was on national tv. Oh that's right, it's just one of the uncontrollable splinter groups, led by some clown kicked off the clown show for not being funny anymore.
Ah. I suspect you're referring to events in the 2008 presidential race.

As ugly as you think that was, it was a very successful effort.

Here's what happened:

One guy in a NorthEastern state, I *think* New Hampster, OCed while somewhere in the general vicinity of one of the campaigns. He wasn't being very overt or confrontational. The national news picked it up - including the part about how the guy wasn't breaking any laws, wasn't arrested and didn't appear violent.

This was one of the few times the national news even mentioned the fact that gun carry was generally legal. To people inside the worst of the "occupied zones" (New York, Illinois, etc.) just learning that legal open carry was a "thing" elsewhere was news - regardless of whether some bigwig running for office was nearby.

Other OC activists realized this was a chance to show people in enemy territory that legal gun carry existed - part of the "mindshare wars" we ALL should be concerned about.

By the time one of the campaigns hit Phoenix AZ we had a very well-dressed black dude with an AR15 across his back, several blocks from an Obama event (with no plans to get closer, and Phoenix PD fully briefed ahead of time). Again, this made the national news and this time it was a double win because not only did news that THAT was legal get out, at least one of the mainstream news outlets was caught red-handed cropping to photo to block the fact that the gent in question was of the melanin-enhanced variety as the news tried to paint this as "redneck white supremacists strike again".

The overall message that *successfully* made it to the heavy gun control zones is that heavy gun control is not the only option, that free states with gun rights exist and flourish. You may consider the delivery mechanism ugly but...hey, we don't have a whole lot of options remaining. Even Faux News gets guns screwed up a lot (coughBILL-Ochoke) and the rest are horrendous.

---

As to reactions in Tucson AZ: somebody I know and spend time with told me something funny a few days ago: a couple of times now they were some distance away from me and overheard the exact same comment about me: "oh yeah, this is Arizona...".

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Old August 28, 2012, 03:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
There have been successful campaigns in getting other parts of the local governments to adhere to the law. DMVs and other public buildings/property now properly allow open carry after letter writing and other forms of political action. However, Las Vegas Metro PD never got on board.
Well heaven help us if we try to get law enforcement to understand that laws apply to them too.

The basic Nevada law on gov't buildings is a good one: if the building in question wants to disarm you, they have to do metal detectors, guards and lockers. This limits building disarmament to only those buildings where there's a real risk, AND prevents them from forcing you to mix with criminals who are packing and who declined to voluntarily check a weapon or leave it in the car.
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Old August 28, 2012, 03:03 PM   #48
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A 51st state I never heard about?

New Hampster?,,,

Another coffee spitting moment.

Aarond

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Old August 28, 2012, 03:30 PM   #49
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Oddly enough, that is often the law the police cite, or that other public buildings used to cite. The only problem is that that law specifies concealed carry.

There are only 2 general location laws in Nevada, no firearms in the legislative building, or where the legislature is conducting business. Also no firearms at schools or child care facilities.(Public Universities/Colleges you can technically get permission to CC, but good luck in getting the the sign off on that)

Other than that all the laws are related to concealed carry only. Technically you can OC into the non-secure areas of an airport here. Although with the fed/local jurisdictional cross over that happens at airports, that seems like a really really good way to wind up spending money on a lawyer lol.
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Old August 28, 2012, 07:12 PM   #50
Rob Pincus
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Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Hotels
Posts: 3,677
1.The Rosa Parks comparison is a Non-Starter. These so called "activists" are doing something legal is a jack-ass-ist way just to get attention. If Rosa Parks had sat in the back of the bus and started Hooting and Hollering about how she was doing it, she just have gotten kicked off the bus for being a whacko. When the "activists" start OCing in Times Square or on the Capitol Mall, they can start referencing Rosa Parks.

2.
Quote:
Now. I can tell you for a FACT that California's anti-gunners soon after that first tried to pass an open-carry ban in 2004-2005 timeframe when I was still a California lobbyist for CCRKBA - and BEFORE there were any open-unload-carry protests in California. How do I know? Well not only did I fight those early bills, Irwin Nowick personally told me that they feared Ohio-style protests. First and only time I've ever felt the least bit tempted to strangle somebody on the other side.

So...if you point to our guys in California being in the wrong without knowing the whole story, then sorry, I know you're speaking from ignorance. Worse, you ignore the Ohio experience which is both recent history and an important turning point...if you don't know about than then you're not as serious an activist in this issue as you make out.
Looks like you just made my point... before the OC Activism, the politicians were NOT able to get OC outlawed in CA.

What about MS ? My understanding is that the AG's office specifically closed the door on OC because of the question caused by Activism earlier this year.

I will admit ignorance on the OH issue, but your reference to it doesn't seem to counter my point about the confrontational side of OC being bad for us. You're talking about organized rallies in support of changing law. What law are these jerks trying to change by goading police into confrontation. Apples & Oranges.

I'm an activist for the positive image of gun owners in the public.

*****

-RJP
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