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Old August 9, 2012, 05:15 PM   #1
Edward429451
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460 Rowland Load Data Needed

I need 460 Rowland load data for a 200gr hardcast bullet. The caveat is that I want anything besides Longshot or AA#7 data. My LGS is out and the only powders I have are Unique, Power Pistol, Bullseye, WW-231, H-110, and 2400.

Someone out there is using the more common powders than Longshot. Chime in, and thx in advance.

Last edited by Shane Tuttle; August 10, 2012 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Bullet
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Old August 10, 2012, 11:45 PM   #2
Clark
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I was using this data 12 year ago, and it is still there
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/460loadchart.htm

I have shot 460 Rowland level loads with Power Pistol, Unique, and AA#5. But never with cast bullets.

Even though Hodgdon does not recommend it, I have shot that high a pressure with cast bullets in 357 mag. They told me the problem was melting the base of the bullet. I did not have problems, but I did not shoot it that much.
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Old August 11, 2012, 12:05 AM   #3
Edward429451
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I don't think melting the base will be a problem. It's not 357 pressures and I wont be hugging max anyway. I'm guessing 8.0 gr of PP or 7.0 gr of Unique to start but want to be sure.

These are intended for my RBH convertible 45 acp cylinder. Not to max it out, just to go into a +P area so it may be appropriate for a woods walking gun over standard 45acp loads. Cheaper to load than 45 Colt too.
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Old August 11, 2012, 10:05 AM   #4
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have a 45acp revolver, a 25-2.
Clark Custom Guns [no relation] has been converting those revolvers for 12 years to be 460 Rowland.

I have some problems with the conversion:
1) I don't want my chambers lengthened for 460 brass, 45acp brass can do anything 460 brass can.
2) I don't want to run 38 k c.u.p in a cylinder with 0.063" chamber wall thickness

I can get more power than 460 Rowland with ~ 23 kpsi pressures, if I make use of the longer over all length possible in the revolver vs 45acp semi auto magazine.

I have a problem with that much recoil [ more than 44 mag] can pull the bullets out. So I cut down a 45 LC seater die do I could roll crimp 45acp and 45 auto rim.
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Old August 12, 2012, 02:28 PM   #5
skyrakev79
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Actually the 45acp case is inferior to the 460 rowland case!

actually the 45acp case is a bit weaker in construction compared to the 460 rowland! i wouldn't dare throw 12gr of unique under a 185gr nosler and expect the case not to rupture, lol, my little bro did it twice, both cases ruptured and the 2nd shot broke the rear sights off his kimber 45! however, with the 460 rowland conversion, i'm quite confident that the brass holds up with at least a 11.5gr charge of unique and gets the 185 gr nosler going around 1375fps out of my kimber/clark 460 rowland. i know there are way more suitable powders for the 460 but unique is all i have on hand right now.
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Old August 13, 2012, 10:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
These are intended for my RBH convertible 45 acp cylinder. Not to max it out, just to go into a +P area so it may be appropriate for a woods walking gun over standard 45acp loads. Cheaper to load than 45 Colt too.
Specifically speaking, to you, with your experience level, I don't believe what you are doing is outrageously dangerous, given the fact that it's a modern Ruger Blackhawk.

Speaking generally, however, and duly noting that we are discussing this in an open forum that is frequently viewed by folks of all skill levels (including ZERO), this whole concept is a lousy one, IMO.

My reasons for saying this:
--You claim that the handgun is perfectly fine for this since it was designed around the .44 Magnum (at least - this was the argument before this thread was edited) but you don't take in to account two major things:
1) The .44 Magnum SAAMI max pressure is 36,000 PSI and the Rowland is higher than that and...

2) The .44 Magnum is a .43 caliber hole while your gun is using a .452 caliber hole

--You did mention clearly that you aren't going to "max it out" but you toss around terms like "+P area" and it's not obvious in the discussion just how freakishly far true SAAMI .45 ACP+P under .460 Rowland operating pressures.

.45 ACP+P has been set by SAAMI at 23,000 PSI
.460 Rowland runs 40,000 PSI.

--You claim that this route is cheaper than using .45 Colt -- but your gun is specifically designed for heavy .45 Colt and specific published load data is widely available for heavy .45 Colt in a modern Ruger Blackhawk.

This isn't the world's wort idea ever and if you are working up with proper, safe methods, it's not likely to cause any fireworks, but it still comes across to me as a poorly conceived idea, more so when discussed amongst so many that are brand new to the hobby and especially so when you've got one of the finest platforms for heavy .45 Colt in production in your hands.

Any thread in which Clark posts in always makes it seem over-conservative to point out things that should be taken with extreme caution. Clark runs tests that are so far away from accepted handloading practices that it makes my argument seem like pure folly, but I'll post it anyhow, just for the good of the forum.

Edward429451, please don't take any part of my post personally. Fact is, I experiment also at my bench, and I do it carefully with a sharp attention to detail as I fully expect that you are doing. To re-iterate, I don't believe you personally are going to end up doing anything extremely dangerous. Point being... the things that I experiment with at my bench, I don't tend to discuss on an open forum where a reckless, random google searcher might find it -- and plug it in on his bench.
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Old August 13, 2012, 03:58 PM   #7
Edward429451
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No offense taken Sevens, and I agree with you completely. I almost didn't start this thread for that reason. I have searched and searched for data with common powders and came up empty. I know there's a few very advanced loaders on this board, and also some with Quick load. To be honest, I extrapolated the Power Pistol and Unique loads, am very familiar with their characteristics, but wanted to know (if others had used them) what the pressure may be.

Heavy 45 Colt data abounds. No problems there. I have a couple hundred 45 Colt cases and close to 10K 45 acp cases so it sure would be nice if I could use them and get closer to a reasonable woodswalking round, which the 45acp is not, in standard loadings.

All of you newer reloaders should take heed of what sevens says and do not try to duplicate anything like this. This is not reloading, this is more experimentation, a "mad-scientist" grey area if you will. Be scared of it and stick to standard loads. This is dangerous and is being approached very cautiously. I have many many years of experience, and I'm on here asking for help. This should clue you in on the danger involved. You have been warned.
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Old August 13, 2012, 11:02 PM   #8
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I am measuring the Ruger Blackhawk 45LC chamber walls are between .059" and .060". between chambers.
That is better than the Smith and Wesson 25-2 0.061" ~ .064" to the outside.
I am still not wild about running 460 Rowland pressures in that.
Hoop stresses are proportional to the inside diameter.
In 9mm I like to see a .100" thick wall and that is a smaller inside diameter.
Quote:
skyrakev79 actually the 45acp case is a bit weaker in construction compared to the 460 rowland!
Starline tells me that their 45 Super brass and 460 Rowland brass are the same except for length.
I have tested their 45 Super brass, and it is the same in bulge resistance and in primer pocket strength as 45acp brass, all the brands I have tested.
The odd ball is Starline 45 acp +P which has thicker walls and holds less powder. The man at Starline tells me that it is for pistols with poor case support.
This is what I have been told and what I found through testing.
There ARE a couple guys out there that have different results than me when cross sectioning 45 Super brass.
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Old August 13, 2012, 11:36 PM   #9
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Wait a minute, the Blackhawk is not as good as the Smith.
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:21 AM   #10
Edward429451
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I can't get any measurements below .065 on my acp cylinder. I used a dial caliper and tried front and back...

I have read in a couple places that 460 R is not different than acp except for length also. I have no 460 brass to weigh, but I do have 45 Super and acp brass. I find that PMC brass is as heavy or heavier than Super brass anyway and with outside dimensions being the same, the web must have the extra brass in it. Seating depths are the same with acp & 460R also so that's a plus.

I'm only trying to reach 1000 or 1050 with 255 gr SWCs, and perhaps 1100 with a 200, so that's probably about a 460 starting load I think. I am not trying to reach even close to a 460 max velocity. I appreciate all you guys input!
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Old August 14, 2012, 07:53 PM   #11
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When working up loads for my .40Super conversion in a 1911,I had to use Quickload for all the powders I tried. As long as a person is prudent about filling in all the setting correctly to reflect your gun and such it is pretty accurate for what you need. I liked N350 and 3n37 for those. AA#5 was good also.
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Old August 14, 2012, 08:44 PM   #12
Edward429451
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I may have to just use my max 45 acp loads and continue working them up from there and chrony them to get where I'm going. I will buy some Longshot powder too. Unique has to work, it works for everything else. No way I'm going to 12 gr though. Probably only 7 or 8 grains will get me there.

I have good brass and a chrony. I'll get this data. Between the chrony and you good folks running it on Quickload for me, I'll be ok. If I use my 255 gr SWC's I will never have a problem with it being possible to mix up my ammo and accidently put some in my automatic. I don't ever run SWC's in my Colt.
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Old August 15, 2012, 01:29 PM   #13
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If hella strong .45 Auto brass is what one seeks... then there's always cutting down a piece of .308 and reaming the case mouth.

Seems Rube Goldberg-ish to me, but I think I kind of passed along that idea above!
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Old August 15, 2012, 05:17 PM   #14
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Would 45WIN Mag brass work? I use it for my 40Super ,I use 15-18gr powder(depending on type),but the pressure is 38,000psi,IRC. Not sure what the 45mag runs offhand. My small rifle primers start flowing, thats how I can tell I'm maxing out. Pistol primers peirce too easy in this caliber.
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Old August 28, 2012, 01:13 AM   #15
Edward429451
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The only way 45 Winmag brass would work is to trim it. The whole idea is to use 45 ACP brass because I have a cylinder chambered in it, and tons more acp brass than colt. Besides, 45 WinMag is 40K PSI, way over where I need to be. 45 acp +P is 23K PSI and probably only as far as I have to go pressure wise to get a 255gr swc going at perhaps 1000 fps.

They would be SWCs in an acp case so they will be readily apparent to be BH only rounds. I need to shorten my seater die now to be able to crimp them. It should still be able to crimp 45C/454 too.
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Old August 28, 2012, 05:16 AM   #16
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Ya I have to trim the brass also. I know it is made for higher psi so it could be a stronger parent case,just a lot of trimming. I was thinking for the Rowland cal.
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