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Old August 20, 2012, 05:49 PM   #26
Nnobby45
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And as many others have said, the handgun is what you use until you can get to something BETTER!!!

Why not just start with "better?
The concept of the pistol is that's it's more likely to be available, whether carried on the street or kept close by in the home. The long gun needs more warning before it can be gotten to and deployed. Yes, if you have that warning, then use the long gun.

I've read many accounts of SD shootings, as most of us have. Can't remember offhand reading an instance where someone "used their pistol to fight their way to their long gun", though that's a nice little quote, often used by newbies who read magazine articles and haven't read much about real world shootings.

Not saying it can't happen, however. The natural place I'd retreat to (if I can make it) has an 870 waiting for me.

NOTE: It was Ayoob who pointed out in his piece about the Dartmouth Professor Murders, that detectives who researched home invasion robberies were so taken with how fast they could occur that some began arming themselves at all times on their person, while off duty, in their own homes.


Things are likely going to be settled with what you have when it all starts, in any event.

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 20, 2012 at 06:03 PM.
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Old August 20, 2012, 07:56 PM   #27
HankB
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Birdshot is for birds - a former VP shot a lawyer in the face with birdshot and he survived.

Now, I won't willingly stand in front of even a .410 revolver filled with birdshot as it can certainly be lethal. But if I'm using a shotgun for self defense, I'm using standard - not reduced power "tactical" - 00 buck.

I can't choose my assailant - the bad guy may not be some skinny teenager, he could be a 6'7' 280 lb steroid-pumped biker in full leathers with a handful of PCP up his nose; in this kind of situation, I want something that will put him down right now whether he feels it or not; there are no absolutes, but 00 buck stands a darned good chance of doing just that.
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Old August 21, 2012, 06:23 AM   #28
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I put this on another thread this morning But

For thse wanting to use slugs, I recently shot some frozen one gallon water jugs. Federal Magnum 3 inch 1 1/4 oz hollow point rifled slugs put a heck of a hole in the ice and penetrated about 2 inches. I also had Remington 3 inch Magnum 1 oz sabot hollow points. They are supposed to expand to twice their caliber. Well, they blew giant chunks out of the ice and broke the remainder of the ice in half. So, if over penetration is a concern I highly suggest to do some testing. I was actually wanting to use those Remingtons for deer, not anymore (too much damage will be done). And I'm sure they'd stop an intruder in their tracks, but I'm almost positive it will go through someone. Between the 2, the Federals seem to be a better suited round.
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Old August 21, 2012, 06:51 AM   #29
2damnold4this
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That is interesting. I didn't know Federal made a #1 buck load with the Flight Control wad. That is something worth looking into.
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Old August 21, 2012, 08:05 AM   #30
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FWIW, I just got a reponse to an email I sent to Federal. It seems there are no plans at this time to put the LE132 1B load into the non-LEO market as PD132 1B. I guess anyone who wants it will have to get it from a police supply that will sell to non-LEOs.
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:16 AM   #31
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Anything, other than birdshot, will go through walls. 7.5 shot across the room is devastating to a perp.
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Old August 22, 2012, 04:27 AM   #32
akguy1985
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best type is dependent on where you live. I live in the country, i use 00 buck in my mossberg 590.
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Old August 22, 2012, 04:39 AM   #33
Nnobby45
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Anything, other than birdshot, will go through walls. 7.5 shot across the room is devastating to a perp.
And can be defeated by heavy leather, or furniture.
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Old August 22, 2012, 04:49 AM   #34
Nnobby45
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For th0se wanting to use slugs, I recently shot some frozen one gallon water jugs. Federal Magnum 3 inch 1 1/4 oz hollow point rifled slugs put a heck of a hole in the ice and penetrated about 2 inches..........
Shooting slugs at ice sounds fun. But provides no useful information to speak of.

The Brenneke slugs tested produced penetration in ballistic gelatin from just under 12"-- all the way to 35" for the Special Forces 2/ 3/4".

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/filea...nte/THD_LE.pdf
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Old August 22, 2012, 06:15 AM   #35
WV_gunner
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When a slug goes clear through that much ice and keeps going, to me, that proves it has way to much over penetration. And this was at about 18 yards.
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Old August 22, 2012, 06:07 PM   #36
Nnobby45
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When a slug goes clear through that much ice and keeps going, to me, that proves it has way to much over penetration. And this was at about 18 yards.
OK, that's proof enough for you.

Just saying that if you want a PRECISE evaluation of how different slugs stack up against each other in a substance designed to imitate actual animal tissue, then check out some of the ballistics testing. It's not perfect, but allows for comparison.

If you want a slug that expands a lot and penetrates a little (for a slug), look at something like Fed. Tac, which has a good reputation of staying in bad buys.

Ice doesn't represent anything you'd be shooting into for self defense. ALL slugs will make a mess of ice. Even bone doesn't approach ice for hardness. Yes, I have to admit, ice blowing up is testimony to the power of the the shotgun slug, but not i'ts penetration in actual shootings.

I've always found it interesting that so much of what takes place on forums represents theories and ignores actual street results from various LE agencies that use the ammo. 155 gr. vs. 180, this slug vs. that, expansion vs. penetration. We don't have to re-invent the wheel. Actual results (for which there're plenty) supercede theories---except, of course, in the minds of those more dedicated to theory than they are understanding actual results. Most of us, including myself, are guilty of it from time to time. Old thoughts die hard.

Getting back a little more on topic: 00 buck works extremely well. Ask LE.
Birdshot is safer for both Bubba and innocents. In between is a compromise.
Slugs are awesome and can really penetrate, but there's only one projectile you're responsible for.
Don't understand what the argument is about. Take your choice and live with it.

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Old August 24, 2012, 10:04 PM   #37
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NOTE: It was Ayoob who pointed out in his piece about the Dartmouth Professor Murders, that detectives who researched home invasion robberies were so taken with how fast they could occur that some began arming themselves at all times on their person, while off duty, in their own homes.
They're not the only ones. Many of us here do the same. And as comfortable as it is for me, why not?
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