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Old August 21, 2012, 06:14 AM   #51
Bart B.
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Doesn't the Army and Marine Corps use the 700 action on dangerous game?
Yes, and so did the USN and USAF snipers back in the late '60's and '70's. But the 700 was not the choice of the best shots and most knowledgeable folks in bolt action rifle action quality and reliability in any of these services; 700's had (and still do, for the most part) too many shortcommings. For example....

* Twists too much in epoxy bedding for 30 caliber rounds; shoot loose and accuracy drops off. Two military rifle teams tried using 1 to 2 inch long recoil lugs to keep it from twisting from barrel torque, but they didn't improve things very much.

* Unreliable extractor, problems feeding from the magazine in rapid fire and inconsistant trigger pulls.

* Not a very stiff action.

Knowledgable shooters in the services preferred the Winchester 70; its action was much better in all these areas besides being about 2.5 times stiffer. But alas, Winchester was in dire straits financially in the 1960's and the military folks holding the purse strings didn't think such a company should make the "new" sniper rifles for the services.
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Old August 21, 2012, 06:35 AM   #52
old roper
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Here is good article on the M700 vs M70

http://yarchive.net/gun/rifle/remington700.html

Read all the upper articles then go down to posting from Gale McMillan that actually was building rifles and see what he talking about.

What real interesting that Bart B and the others didn't take him up on his 50K bet.

This is small clip on his bet from Gale McMillan post

"If that doesn't covince you maybe we can arrange a little shoot
off for say $50,000 winner take all"
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Old August 21, 2012, 07:11 AM   #53
gaseousclay
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What evidence you have that the triggers are faulty?

If there is some actual evidence, I will be happy to change my opinion, but lacking anything at all, the only "fault" I can find is that any moron with a small screwdriver can monkey with them and make them unsafe.
I don't get it. there's documented video footage of US military test firing these rifles and they went off from just touching the bolt. there also seem to be several people here that have had similar discharges happen with their Remingtons. So are you calling these people liars because you view it as a smear against Remington? If you personally haven't had any problems, good for you, but it sounds like you're trivializing the matter
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:09 AM   #54
emcon5
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documented video footage of US military test firing these rifles and they went off from just touching the bolt.
No, there is a video of some unknown dude in generic Camo with a black ball cap and blurred face. I would bet $100 that rifle did not leave the factory like that. What was found when the rifle was inspected by Remington?

And you know what, give me a couple hours with a jewelers screwdriver and I bet I could get my 700 to do the same thing. Monkeying with the easily monkeyed-with 700 trigger does not mean it is defective, and with zero context, that video isn't all that meaningful.

There is also a memo from the Marines telling units not to mess with the trigger adjustments, followed by an order for a bunch more rifles.
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:25 AM   #55
allaroundhunter
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I don't get it. there's documented video footage of US military test firing these rifles and they went off from just touching the bolt. there also seem to be several people here that have had similar discharges happen with their Remingtons. So are you calling these people liars because you view it as a smear against Remington? If you personally haven't had any problems, good for you, but it sounds like you're trivializing the matter
These were with triggers that were modified by soldiers in-country. Since this happened, the rifles were returned to Remington and the problem was that the triggers were modified in ways that they were not intended to be. With the proper trigger, the same rifles that had previously had problems could not be made to discharge on accident by any means. Since orders have been not to tinker with the M700 trigger, there have been 0 reports of ADs coming back from overseas.

The whole problem with the trigger is that people who don't know what they are doing try to "make it better" and make it dangerous instead. It is not the fault of the rifle, it is the fault of the operator.
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Old August 21, 2012, 10:10 AM   #56
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The whole problem with the trigger is that people who don't know what they are doing try to "make it better" and make it dangerous instead. It is not the fault of the rifle, it is the fault of the operator.
This is the core of the problem I believe. Military snipers do not have halos around there heads anymore than civilians. They are "gun nuts" also, (I will include myself in this category) and will go to extremes to get that edge in accuracy. These trigger groups although adjustable, are not designed to be target triggers, but are being used for this purpose. For a little over $100, get a timney, and then set it below 3 lbs.
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Old August 21, 2012, 12:33 PM   #57
jmr40
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there has not been a single bit of solid evidence that these malfunctions are not user error rather than faulty design.
It is these type of posts that bother me. Some folks might actually believe them and get into trouble.

I've provided PROOF that Remington engineers found the trigger was faulty as far back as the 1940's.

I've provided PROOF that 152 rifles were returned to Remington in 1980 complaining of guns firing on their own. Remington found that 55 of the total did it for them, they were unable to make the other 97 do it. ( I did misread the chart on my earlier post). Just because Remington could not duplicate the problem, does not mean it didn't happen. But anyway you look at it this is 55 confirmed incidents, verified by Remington technicians, just in 1 year. If that is a typical year that would be at least 3500 such incidents over the life of the trigger design.

Since the 1950's Remington has been sued over 75 times. To the best of my knowledge they have never prevailed. Either losing the suit or settling before.

This is not a witch hunt by a TV network. The problem has been around since TV was in its infancy, long before CNBC existed.

How many times has Winchester, Ruger, Savage, or Weatherby been sued? Why is it that no one ever blames ANY other gun of firing on its own? To believe that there is no faulty trigger, the only other conclusion is that Remington owners are the dumbest gun owners on the planet. I know a lot of Remington gun owners and I don't buy that theory.
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Old August 21, 2012, 12:39 PM   #58
ligonierbill
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For JimPage, and others wanting "the rest of the story", I killed my first elk with this 700 on a snowy day the weekend after Thanksgiving in Idaho. Late hunt, cow tag. Long shot, but the cow went down kicking. So, we hike over, rifle slung and a fresh cartridge in the chamber. She's done, so time to unload and get to work. This is the old safety - release to open the chamber. Bang! Hmmm...I wasn't near the trigger. Did have gloves on, though...maybe. Glad I followed my hunter safety and had the muzzle in a safe position. So, I get back to work on Monday and start telling the story, and the guy finishes it for me. Not you, it's the gun, says he. So, that's when I started pressing the trigger with the safety on, then releasing the safety, with, you know, an empty chamber. Repeat, empty chamber. Fast forward to 2010, and my brother is carrying the rifle on a snowy day in Colorado. (Some of you may remember 2nd rifle season that year - harsh.) Warned him to stay away from the trigger, and I think he did. Still, he had to flip off the safety. Bang! Again, muzzle safe, but big brother has to truck on over there to see his elk. No elk. So, folks, it can happen.

I need to emphasize that some fool fooled with the trigger on this one. It's not set super light, but looks to be too light. Note the common element of cold and snowy, however. I'm keeping the rifle, but it's getting a new trigger. If you have an older 700, be real careful about adjusting the trigger pull. There are good instructions on the net.
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Old August 21, 2012, 01:31 PM   #59
emcon5
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I've provided PROOF that Remington engineers found the trigger was faulty as far back as the 1940's.
No. You provided a memo that some of the parts are "out of design limits". That is not the same thing as a faulty design, no matter how much you claim it is.

Quote:
I've provided PROOF that 152 rifles were returned to Remington in 1980 complaining of guns firing on their own.
No. You provided proof that 152 rifles were returned to Remington for safety problems. The only problems that were specified were the ones that could not be duplicated.

Quote:
Remington found that 55 of the total did it for them, they were unable to make the other 97 do it. ( I did misread the chart on my earlier post). Just because Remington could not duplicate the problem, does not mean it didn't happen. But anyway you look at it this is 55 confirmed incidents, verified by Remington technicians, just in 1 year. If that is a typical year that would be at least 3500 such incidents over the life of the trigger design.
No. You provided a document that stated of 133 rifles returned they could confirm the problems of 44 of them, but there is no information what those 44 reported problems were, nor is there any indication of what the root cause of the problem was. It could be that all 44 failed the "Trick" test, or that all 44 had triggers that were monkeyed with by the end user. I would guess that the details are in the "Attached Letter" mentioned in the document.

If I was a cynic I would guess that letter was not included by the MSNBC because it didn't support their thesis.
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Old August 21, 2012, 01:39 PM   #60
Clark
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nimbleVagrant

Doesn't the Army and Marine Corps use the 700 action on dangerous game?
I have read a post by Bart Bobbitt a long time ago, that explained what happened that resulted in Rem700 Rifles going to the military for snipers.

2004 rec.guns

Winchester was going
through dire financial straits in the 1960s. Although the competitive
shooters liked the Winchester and well knew its advantages over the
Remington, the militay brass watching everybody's finances and
business outlook - chose Remington. I talked with one of the Navy
guys who went to the Pentagon to discuss all these things and he said
it was a real dog fight among those hammering out the details of the
choice for the next standard issue sniper rifle for the US armed
forces.
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Old August 21, 2012, 02:27 PM   #61
gaseousclay
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How many times has Winchester, Ruger, Savage, or Weatherby been sued? Why is it that no one ever blames ANY other gun of firing on its own? To believe that there is no faulty trigger, the only other conclusion is that Remington owners are the dumbest gun owners on the planet. I know a lot of Remington gun owners and I don't buy that theory.
this was essentially the same question I asked in my ealier post. I have yet to see any reports or statistical data that shows guns discharging on their own from other companies besides Remington. It's strange to me how defensive people seem to be getting when someone criticizes Remington....as if someone just called their mother a whore. there have already been a couple of you that clearly state you've experienced your Remington going off without being anywhere near the trigger, yet, people still see fit to attribute it to 'user error.' I call this head-in-the-sand' syndrome
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Old August 21, 2012, 03:20 PM   #62
coyota1
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"It's strange to me how defensive people seem to be getting when someone criticizes Remington....as if someone just called their mother a whore".
It's like calling my favorite rifle a whore. Regarding the triggers that malfunctioned, the trigger groups were either tampered with, or in very bad condition. Any machine will fail if you don't keep up your end.
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Old August 21, 2012, 04:29 PM   #63
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It has nothing to do with being defensive, and it really has nothing to do with Remington. It has to do with calling BS what it is, BS.

It comes from a complete lack of respect for a network with a history of bias, who had their conclusion (gun company= BAD! ) before they even bothered to start their so-called "investigative journalism" and only chose to present information that supported their thesis.

To state that Remington rifles must be bad because they have been sued a bunch of times is laughable, as is the claim that other gun companies have not been sued. This is America, where meritless lawsuits are a billion dollar industry.

Companies settle all the time when they are in the right because it is cheaper than fighting, even if they win. It is a business decision.
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Old August 21, 2012, 05:02 PM   #64
Clark
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If I can adjust a trigger engagement as small as I want, and there is a trigger safety, I can make the rifle go off when the safety to put on and then is taken off.

Does anyone think I can't?

All I need is a big screw driver to get the stock off and a little screw driver for the trigger and a lawyer to sue.
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Old August 21, 2012, 09:20 PM   #65
Art Eatman
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Enough. I have no doubt that this, the umpteenth iteration on this subject, will be repeated before long...
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