The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 19, 2012, 07:54 AM   #26
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Andy McNab; Heat, Tom Cruise...

To my limited knowledge, former SAS/counter-terrorist expert & author; Andy McNab trained TC in firearms-tactics.
McNab was used often by Michael Mann(Heat, Miami Vice) to train actors & crews.
A sworn deputy/auto theft detail member also told me scenes from Colaterial were used by the sheriff's office training division for new personnel.

I'd also heard that for a long time, the US Marine Corps training center in San Diego CA used the gunfight scenes in Heat(1995) to demo gun battle tactics to new recruits.

It's been several years since I saw Collaterial so I'm a bit off with the Cruise scenes. I'd say it would take a lot of time & effort to be as skilled a marksman or be as smooth in real life.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old August 19, 2012, 01:59 PM   #27
Husqvarna
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 484
re:Clyde

there is like a quote on the Heat dvd extra material about it. it is specifically about val kilmers reload speed. something akin to drill sergeant: "if this hollywood geek can do it so can you

edit sorry

Last edited by Husqvarna; August 19, 2012 at 02:57 PM.
Husqvarna is offline  
Old August 19, 2012, 10:55 PM   #28
Ambishot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2011
Location: US
Posts: 274
@ Husqvarna and ClydeFrog

Here's said footage from the Heat DVD's extra materials. It shows the training for weapon shooting in the film, and the quote from Val Kilmer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW0yebyGk-8
Ambishot is offline  
Old August 19, 2012, 11:00 PM   #29
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,951
Quote:
You have to admit the realism when he takes out those two thugs, first by disarming one, and then drilling 3 holes in each of them.
Sorta...

Watch the footage again in slow motion, focusing on the second threat instead of watching Vincent or the first threat. What you'll notice is that the second threat has to intentionally bobble his draw in order to give Vincent time to pull off the scene.

I liked the scene, it was fun to watch; but I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to call it realistic.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 30, 2012, 04:40 AM   #30
DasGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2011
Posts: 318
^

You also have to take into account that they are actors and have practiced this scene countless times. Everyone knew exactly what was going to happen and when it was going to happen.

If it was some normal bad guy that didn't know it was coming; who knows how he would have reacted.

Still, awesome scene in an awesome movie. The night club scene was also pretty cool.
DasGuy is offline  
Old August 30, 2012, 04:44 AM   #31
paradoxbox
Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Posts: 26
But who's to say a random thug on the street is going to be able to get his gun out and aimed that quickly anyway?

Tom had already started shooting the second guy in under 1 1/2 seconds, that is faster than most people can even hit their first target - and those are people who train seriously for speed. For realistic, plausible self defense scenarios I think the scene was good enough. It might not always pan out the way it did in the movie, but we can't control the way things work out every time.

Interesting discussion from everyone !
paradoxbox is offline  
Old August 30, 2012, 09:31 AM   #32
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,107
Quote:
Tom had already started shooting the second guy in under 1 1/2 seconds, that is faster than most people can even hit their first target - and those are people who train seriously for speed
I disagree with that analysis of time. I've seen folks draw and hit three targets with double taps in 2.5 seconds.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 30, 2012, 11:31 PM   #33
MarkDozier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 329
Quote:
I am sure all of us have seen Collateral which is a great and entertaining movie
Another false assumption.
I have never seen nor care if I see this movie.
But the discussion is interesting.
MarkDozier is offline  
Old August 31, 2012, 05:47 AM   #34
paradoxbox
Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Posts: 26
Quote:
I disagree with that analysis of time. I've seen folks draw and hit three targets with double taps in 2.5 seconds.
Maybe SOME people can do that, but I am talking about what most people can do. It just seems unlikely to me that some random junkie is going to have crazy wild west style fast-drawing and fast-shooting skills.

Of course anything is possible and we should train for many contingencies but in the case of Tom's scene the bad guy had no idea Tom was about to pull out a concealed weapon and fumbled just to get his gun out of his waistband or pocket.
paradoxbox is offline  
Old August 31, 2012, 10:22 AM   #35
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,107
Maybe quite a few trained people can do it. Didn't I say that in IDPA matches, we found 30% of the top folks can beat Tom?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 31, 2012, 10:39 AM   #36
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
But Glenn, that also means that 70% of IDPA shooters you tested could NOT beat him.

Factor in an apparently somewhat intoxicated low-life, who probably doesn't get a lot of practice, and I'd say it's pretty likely the guy would actually fumble for the gun and not be at top 30% of IDPA shooter's speed.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 31, 2012, 12:26 PM   #37
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
Maybe SOME people can do that, but I am talking about what most people can do.
Most people, if sufficiently healthy, motivated and trained could do what the Vincent character did. Maybe not the first time, or the 100th time, but give any competent instructor 90 days and a healthy, motivated student, and I'm pretty sure it could be done.

IIRC, the premise of the movie was that this Vincent character is a proffessional hit man paid by a drug cartel .... it would not be any stretch to assume that he would spend more time training than 70%, or even 95% of IDPA shooters.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old August 31, 2012, 09:38 PM   #38
SG29736
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2007
Location: Northern Ca.
Posts: 80
"Maybe quite a few trained people can do it. Didn't I say that in IDPA matches, we found 30% of the top folks can beat Tom? "

Is this supposed to mean the top 30% of all IDPA shooters, or 30% of the top IDPA shooters?

If you identified the top shooters in IDPA as the top 10%, this statement would be saying that 30% of them, or only about 3% of all IDPA shooters could beat the time.

Mark
SG29736 is offline  
Old August 31, 2012, 10:05 PM   #39
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,107
IIRC, it was 30% of the best folks at a regional match.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 10:27 PM   #40
theinvisibleheart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2005
Location: virtual internet world with a Daisy Red Ryder, LOL
Posts: 678
first, I thought it was Glock.

I believe the technique that Vincent/Tom Cruise used was close in combat shooting when your opponents are very close(3 yards or less).

Your simply draw and normally, draw the non-shooting hand to your body to avoid accidentally shooting it.

You shoot from the hip as soon as it clears the holster and gun muzzle is in front of your body, elbow of shooting hand parallel to the ground.

What Vincent/Cruise did was to slap the first guy's arm down with his support hand first.

If my memory serves me right, Vincent/Cruise then turned and engaged in MW(Modern Weaver) to shoot the 2nd guy.

Last edited by theinvisibleheart; September 9, 2012 at 01:16 AM.
theinvisibleheart is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 12:43 AM   #41
theinvisibleheart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2005
Location: virtual internet world with a Daisy Red Ryder, LOL
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxbox
You can see an example of this drill at about 0:41 in this youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbC5mEc6ipE
That is different from the scene in which Vincent/Cruise shoots 2 briefcase thieves/robbers.

In the above YouTube video(shooter shooting multiple steel plates from one stationary position), you know the course of fire and you need to develop the appropriate rhythm(fast side way movement of your upper torso/shooting platform b/w shots, while recovering from recoil).

That is a DIFFERENT SKILL SET from the dynamic shooting scene in the movie Collateral when Vincent/Cruise shot 2 briefcase robbers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxbox
You can see what I'm talking about at about 1:05 and again at about 1:51 in the following youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-P8sJNHk0
Better.

BTW, in the beginning, when Cruise holstered his firearm behind the hip, he put his non-shooting hand on the shooting side of the hip and either swept his hand or came dangerously close to sweeping his hand with live firearm while holstering.

Also, I think he swept his leg when he drew and turned.

Not sure why Cruise held his non-firing hand over the gun during close in shooting or why he held the pistol toward sky/ceiling when moving b/w shots.

I think it's safer to hold the non-shooting hand close to your body during in close shooting.

When moving b/w shots, it's better to move with muzzle pointing toward the floor/ground(if you are surprised in close with muzzle up, you could be wrestling with your opponent grasping your shooting arm with both hands).


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxbox
#1) During the briefcase robbery scene, Vincent slaps the gun arm of the would-be robber down then draws and fires on both assailants.
That scene would be this one, I presume:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiqwF...eature=related

This is more of an application of dynamic, close in shooting skill development training. Similar COF/training routine would be:
- push to the face and as you draw, step back and shoot
- step to the side and shoot
- draw as you step back at an oblique angle and shoot
- falling on your back, as if pushed by your opponent, and draw/shoot
- drop into squat/one leg kneel quickly from ground and shoot
- drop into rice paddy squat from a standing position and shoot
etc.

Last edited by theinvisibleheart; September 9, 2012 at 01:29 AM.
theinvisibleheart is offline  
Old September 9, 2012, 01:27 AM   #42
theinvisibleheart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2005
Location: virtual internet world with a Daisy Red Ryder, LOL
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxbox
Quote:
I disagree with that analysis of time. I've seen folks draw and hit three targets with double taps in 2.5 seconds.

Maybe SOME people can do that, but I am talking about what most people can do. It just seems unlikely to me that some random junkie is going to have crazy wild west style fast-drawing and fast-shooting skills.

Of course anything is possible and we should train for many contingencies but in the case of Tom's scene the bad guy had no idea Tom was about to pull out a concealed weapon and fumbled just to get his gun out of his waistband or pocket.
Having the element of surprise and/or drop is the key according to my understanding, more than skill.

When you are faced with multiple shooters/opponents, skilled or unskilled, if you have the drop on your opponents(your gun is out and their is not) or the element of surprise like Vincent/Cruise did in the scene, odds are that you'll prevail over several opponents.

OTOH, if your opponents already had their guns out and were ready to use it and you had ZERO ELEMENT OF SURPRISE(they know you have the gun hidden and is about to draw), odds are that you won't prevail over several opponents.

Your brain (and that of your opponent(s)) has LAG TIME, whether you are skilled or unskilled.

If you have the drop on your opponent(s) and/or can surprise them, you can exploit that LAG TIME to your advantage if you already have a set course of action(shoot them).

Last edited by theinvisibleheart; September 9, 2012 at 02:27 AM.
theinvisibleheart is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 10:30 PM   #43
TheSILENTtype
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2012
Posts: 139
Not sure how long ago this issue was settled, but this is one of the greatest movies in exsistance IMO.

In regards to the CQTS method and procedure used by Vincent in the film , Tom underwent extensive training over large periods of time, under highly skilled Practical Firearms and Shooting Instructors, and was outfitted with custom clothing in order to complete the scene without speeding it up VIA Hollywood machine magic.

I do not have an online link handy, but there was a special feature done on the scene in question, the methodology and logistics of it.
If I recall correctly ; Tom went through 4 , $2000 custom made suits to film this scene.. due to ripping a section of the pants near the IWB each time.

Bonus : Tom actually did the SHOOTING for this drill and had obtained accurate grouping at a similar speed in drills up to 30YDS. His training was done OTR, locked and loaded.

Again, I love this movie..... but now I wont be able to stop watching it..again!
__________________
THE SILENT TYPE
TheSILENTtype is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:41 PM   #44
Justice06RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2010
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,187
Quote:
Another false assumption.
I have never seen nor care if I see this movie.
But the discussion is interesting.
If you have not seen it, you should. Its really a pretty good movie and worth watching.

You are missing half the discussion if you haven't.
Justice06RR is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:47 PM   #45
TheSILENTtype
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2012
Posts: 139
I have been watching it consecutively since I first read this post...........please someone help.
__________________
THE SILENT TYPE
TheSILENTtype is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 05:38 PM   #46
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 244
Some behind the scenes stuff regarding Cruise's training:

CLICK HERE
zombietactics is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 02:43 AM   #47
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 806
When you use modern firearms in a movie, firing blanks, and spend months live firing those self same firearms, live, every day.

You end up with an actor who looks the part, acts the part.

The average criminal, has not good gun handling skills, first, they do not use holsters, if they have to ditch a weapon, having a holster on a belt? What we call a clue!

One of my expert witness jobs, in a self defense claim by the shooter (he walked from court, free) Toronto, March 1998.

One of the persons shot, was shot once in the body, and then once in the head, as he was lying on the street, still struggling to get a short barreled revolver from his jacket pocket, the exposed hammer was stuck in the lining.

This revolver was in the court, and the rounds that were in it, was also present, all mismatched, a round nose, a semi wad cutter, a target 148g full wad cutter. It was funny really, I was handed the .38 special rounds, whilst still in possession of the revolver!

As an expert, yes I know! But I did not have a brief case. You can get the jury on your side with little tricks, for instance, "Even though this revolver is empty of any ammunition, I will never point the barrel in your direction"

If you watch the 12 members of the Jury, they are nodding in response.

The Lawyer and I, spent a couple of hours, play acting the Q and A, in his Office.

Back to Tom Cruise and the movie, well done movie!
Brit is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12477 seconds with 9 queries