Carrying extra mags for CC pistol - Page 4

OldMarksman · August 12, 2012, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Posted by BlueTrain: So the question is, exactly what muscle memory is being developed?

That which is associated with the draw, presentation, grip, and trigger control.

And, back on topic, dropping the magazine, working the slide, replacing the magazines, and chambering a round.

ClydeFrog · August 12, 2012, 09:08 AM

I, for one, would also consider a spare magazine or 2 as a smart method if you train-condition to reload a fully charged pistol magazine when possible in a critical incident.
I too, agree that fear, stress, emotion, etc may lower your reaction time/skill level in a violent attack BUT, proper training & having the right mindset will get you through it.
To say; "I'm not sure I could do a reload-mag change, or I'll be to scared to handle my firearm correctly in a critical incident is just asking for trouble.
Guns & ammunition are not toys or props.
If you can't train properly or carry a loaded firearm with the right mindset then DON'T CARRY it at all.

MLeake · August 12, 2012, 11:45 AM

Given BT's scenario (with which I agree - smart attackers look for opportune windows), training muscle memory to walk like you are comfortable and in control can preempt a lot of problems.

IE, train away any tendencies to walk in a nervous or tentative manner. Jackals do not typically prey on lions.

BlueTrain · August 12, 2012, 12:03 PM

You folks are probably correct. Handling a firearm is one of the most difficult thing I can ever imagine doing. Why it makes double-clutching while shifting gears seem easy. Come to think of it, I learned to drive a six-speed manual transmission on a right-hand drive vehicle in about a thousand yards well enough to manage driving the length and width of England last year with no problem. Maybe the handgun you've been using the last 40 years isn't that difficult after all!

DragonDog · August 12, 2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

training to...walk like you are comfortable and in control can preempt a lot of problems.

Agreed.

allaroundhunter · August 12, 2012, 10:18 PM

Since I carry a semi-automatic pistol, I always carry at least one spare magazine. Yes, I feel very confident with the 17+1 rounds that are already in the gun (M&P9), but if I have a malfunction such as a double feed that requires me to eject the magazine, I do not want to be reinserting a magazine that could have just caused a problem; nor do I want to be fumbling with that magazine whilst I am trying to clear the jam. I would prefer to strip it out of the gun and let it fall, clear the gun with my free hand, and then insert a fresh magazine and reassess the threat from there.

aphdmansoc · August 12, 2012, 11:10 PM

If you find yourself in a situation like gunhand describes "Fighting against an assailant armed with a long gun and body armor is likely to be a losing battle if you only have a handgun." I think it fair to say that you are in the wrong place at the wrong time using the wrong tactics and God probably doesn't like you!

To the question...carrying extra ammo is smart. Carrying an extra gun is even smarter.

bikerbill · August 15, 2012, 11:05 AM

I always have a spare mag with me ... it's light, doesn't get in the way and the peace of mind that comes from extra ammo (and a way to solve a mag-related failure in a pinch if I need to) is worth any inconvenience ...

9mmfan · August 17, 2012, 04:08 AM

Don't currently, though I have been considering it. Haven't gotten off my lazy behind to get a mag carrier for the Glock. I'm not in too much of a hurry, given that for a couple three years there I carried a five shot revolver with no extra ammo.

PT-92 · August 17, 2012, 10:13 AM

Whether it's Massad Ayoob or you local range master, you will get different opinions on this. The fact is empirically there's no right or wrong answer so you will have to ask yourself does YOUR environment or particular circumstances dictates the need.

Personally, I carry an extra mag as well as a BUG and can conceal both very comfortably which is very important for me (primary KTP11 BUG Beretta 21A or PT-22/25).

Others will argue it's nothing more than the proverbial "Placebo effect"?

One thing for sure is what's the downside? I don't see one (I won't listen to the 'what happens in court..." scenarios as I see no relevance/credence with that concern unless someone can point me to a url that speaks to this).

IRONPONY · August 17, 2012, 11:57 AM

I always carry one extra magazine or speed loader ,depending on the handgun that I'm carrying.

RBid · August 19, 2012, 04:47 PM

I always carry a spare magazine, to cover malfunctions.

My carry weapon is a Ruger SR9c. I used to carry a 17-round spare. I now carry a second 10-round magazine, instead.

If LE or prosecution were to try to spin the spare magazine as a sign of aggression, I would be comfortable and confident defending the choice with the explanation that it was for covering malfunctions. With the amount of information and discussion around this topic, it is an easy defense. Switching to a second 10- was partly to support this, should it ever be relevant.

manta49 · August 19, 2012, 05:05 PM

A guy here was ambushed buy 4 people 2 carrying ak 47-s. He shot one of them dead wounded another the others ran away. He had two mag-s and was down to his last two rounds. I bet he was glad he had the extra mag. How would the people that say 5 or one mag is enough have managed this situation. ?

Constantine · August 19, 2012, 06:44 PM

^^^^^^ uuuuuh....?

SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / Beretta PX4 Storm / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / Kahr CW9 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15

sent from my Android

Nanuk · August 19, 2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

A guy here was ambushed buy 4 people 2 carrying ak 47-s. He shot one of them dead wounded another the others ran away. He had two mag-s and was down to his last two rounds. I bet he was glad he had the extra mag. How would the people that say 5 or one mag is enough have managed this situation. ?

It can happen anywhere. I would rather have it and not need it than the other way around.

Tony615 · August 19, 2012, 10:01 PM

I carry 2 extra 12 round magazines for my auto pistol. I have a OWB mag holder and a IWB holster.

PT-92 · August 19, 2012, 10:56 PM

I always read posts concerning the potential for the increased likelihood of prosecution of those CCW individuals carrying extra capacity/ammo.

Can anyone actually refer me to either a case or even documented attorneythat speaks to this issue (or non-issue)? I have written it off as an 'old wives' tale' (kind of like the .22lr is responsible for more deaths than any other caliber--again, where is the empirical evidence of such)?

-Cheers

BlueTrain · August 21, 2012, 09:24 AM

Well, here's another angle on the question: I'd rather carry two single column magazines than one double column magazines. However, the only reason for that is because they're flatter. Mind you, the gun itself is thicker, any of them, and I've never seemed to let an opinion like that make a difference when buying anything. I never let reason stand in the way.

Judging from photos taken at police shooting competitions in the 1950s, it was apparently not uncommon for detectives to carry spare ammo loose in the pocket, and even more surprising for that method to be used in a competition. But at least they carried spare ammo.

Woody55 · August 21, 2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

A guy here was ambushed buy 4 people 2 carrying ak 47-s. He shot one of them dead wounded another the others ran away. He had two mag-s and was down to his last two rounds. I bet he was glad he had the extra mag. How would the people that say 5 or one mag is enough have managed this situation. ?

I don't mean this in a sarcastic or insulting way at all.

I believe I have "managed [the] situation" by not living in a place where anything remotely like that has ever happened. And while it could happen, my estimate of the odds are that it is so unlikely that it is not worth worrying about.

ChrisJ715 · August 21, 2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:
A guy here was ambushed buy 4 people 2 carrying ak 47-s. He shot one of them dead wounded another the others ran away. He had two mag-s and was down to his last two rounds. I bet he was glad he had the extra mag. How would the people that say 5 or one mag is enough have managed this situation. ?
It can happen anywhere. I would rather have it and not need it than the other way around.

Same here

manta49 · August 22, 2012, 10:30 AM

Quote. Woody55. I don't mean this in a sarcastic or insulting way at all.

I believe I have "managed [the] situation" by not living in a place where anything remotely like that has ever happened. And while it could happen, my estimate of the odds are that it is so unlikely that it is not worth worrying about.

So you would give in to terrorists and move from your home. ?

Maybe that's why he won the military medal for not running away. The guy had numerous threats made on his life. He knew when he went to work that day their was a chance of a ambush but he went anyway.

The chances of anyone shooting at you are slim. But i thought the idea of carrying a gun was just in case. PS. No insult taken.

**Glenn E. Meyer** · August 22, 2012, 10:39 AM

I don't know of a case where extra mags were brought up.

However, we do know of cases and simulations where training, ammo, competition, the Internet cliches, gun type have been brought up or influenced juries.

Wearing glasses influences juries.

You need to have an attorney that can tell a reasonable story for all of your gear, training and competition.

Jury research is clear that you can tell a negative story about a person based on personal characteristics and life style. Anyone is free to disbelieve that.

I wouldn't not carry extra ammo because of jury fears but I darn well would have a lawyer who was up on the issues of jury influence and could bring in the appropriate experts to rationalize your choice if the prosecution makes you look like a nut.

Frank has listed relevant cases in several posts. THR has a summary sticky of such.

MLeake · August 22, 2012, 11:33 AM

As far as defense attorneys go, should the event ever arise, you'll want an attorney who has experience representing good people, not just scumbags; and you will want an attorney who is either a gun guy himself, or who fully understands the value of defense expert witnesses in the fields of firearms and self defense.

I don't worry about an extra mag or two. (Edit: I don't care about the legal ramifications of an extra mag or two; when carrying an auto, I always carry an extra mag or two.)

OTOH, I don't have Punisher grips, nor do I have "Smile, wait for flash!" on or near the crown of my barrel.

PT-92 · August 22, 2012, 12:12 PM

I think the case in FL. with George Zimmerman and his attorney will provide for a good example of a client/attorney/SD representation case (though as far as I am aware there were no extra mags in question?). I had a look and I do not see that his lawyer is notorious with Second Amendment like cases but I guess we shall see. I think he needs to make sure it doesn't get to a jury...

Woody55 · August 22, 2012, 01:46 PM

@Manta49

Quote:

So you would give in to terrorists and move from your home. ?

Maybe that's why he won the military medal for not running away. The guy had numerous threats made on his life. He knew when he went to work that day their was a chance of a ambush but he went anyway.

Northern Ireland during the Troubles is not exactly a good analogy to living in the United States. I choose to live in a rural area of Texas as opposed to a high crime area of one of the big cities like Houston, San Antonio or Dallas. I don't hang out with drug dealers - trouble seems to blossom around them. I don't hang out in honky tonks in the middle of nowhere - same idea.

If the entire US were like Northern Ireland at that time, I might well make a different choice in what I carried because I couldn't avoid the problem.

In addition, I'm a little confused as to the facts here. Isn't (or wasn't) the Military Medal a UK award to members of the military? Was this gentlemen a Soldier or Marine on duty? If so, the situation is again different.

August 12, 2012, 09:08 AM	#77
ClydeFrog Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 3,862	doubt, fear, mag changes... I, for one, would also consider a spare magazine or 2 as a smart method if you train-condition to reload a fully charged pistol magazine when possible in a critical incident. I too, agree that fear, stress, emotion, etc may lower your reaction time/skill level in a violent attack BUT, proper training & having the right mindset will get you through it. To say; "I'm not sure I could do a reload-mag change, or I'll be to scared to handle my firearm correctly in a critical incident is just asking for trouble. Guns & ammunition are not toys or props. If you can't train properly or carry a loaded firearm with the right mindset then DON'T CARRY it at all.

August 12, 2012, 12:03 PM	#79
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,809	You folks are probably correct. Handling a firearm is one of the most difficult thing I can ever imagine doing. Why it makes double-clutching while shifting gears seem easy. Come to think of it, I learned to drive a six-speed manual transmission on a right-hand drive vehicle in about a thousand yards well enough to manage driving the length and width of England last year with no problem. Maybe the handgun you've been using the last 40 years isn't that difficult after all! __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 12, 2012, 11:10 PM	#82
aphdmansoc Member Join Date: March 1, 2012 Location: United States Posts: 23	If you find yourself in a situation like gunhand describes "Fighting against an assailant armed with a long gun and body armor is likely to be a losing battle if you only have a handgun." I think it fair to say that you are in the wrong place at the wrong time using the wrong tactics and God probably doesn't like you! To the question...carrying extra ammo is smart. Carrying an extra gun is even smarter. __________________ You can get a lot with a smile but you can get a lot more with a smile and a gun...Al Capone

August 15, 2012, 11:05 AM	#83
bikerbill Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Lago Vista TX Posts: 2,134	I always have a spare mag with me ... it's light, doesn't get in the way and the peace of mind that comes from extra ammo (and a way to solve a mag-related failure in a pinch if I need to) is worth any inconvenience ... __________________ "The gun has been called the great equalizer ... It insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed." --Ronald Reagan

August 17, 2012, 10:13 AM	#85
PT-92 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2007 Location: "Undisclosed Bunker" Posts: 1,296	As Always It's Only Personal Preference Whether it's Massad Ayoob or you local range master, you will get different opinions on this. The fact is empirically there's no right or wrong answer so you will have to ask yourself does YOUR environment or particular circumstances dictates the need. Personally, I carry an extra mag as well as a BUG and can conceal both very comfortably which is very important for me (primary KTP11 BUG Beretta 21A or PT-22/25). Others will argue it's nothing more than the proverbial "Placebo effect"? One thing for sure is what's the downside? I don't see one (I won't listen to the 'what happens in court..." scenarios as I see no relevance/credence with that concern unless someone can point me to a url that speaks to this). __________________ NRA Life Member “A free people ought...to be armed..." ―George Washington

August 12, 2012, 11:45 AM	#78
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,662	Given BT's scenario (with which I agree - smart attackers look for opportune windows), training muscle memory to walk like you are comfortable and in control can preempt a lot of problems. IE, train away any tendencies to walk in a nervous or tentative manner. Jackals do not typically prey on lions.

August 12, 2012, 10:18 PM	#81
allaroundhunter Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2012 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 914	Since I carry a semi-automatic pistol, I always carry at least one spare magazine. Yes, I feel very confident with the 17+1 rounds that are already in the gun (M&P9), but if I have a malfunction such as a double feed that requires me to eject the magazine, I do not want to be reinserting a magazine that could have just caused a problem; nor do I want to be fumbling with that magazine whilst I am trying to clear the jam. I would prefer to strip it out of the gun and let it fall, clear the gun with my free hand, and then insert a fresh magazine and reassess the threat from there.

August 17, 2012, 04:08 AM	#84
9mmfan Member Join Date: May 26, 2012 Location: Weatherford, TX Posts: 42	Don't currently, though I have been considering it. Haven't gotten off my lazy behind to get a mag carrier for the Glock. I'm not in too much of a hurry, given that for a couple three years there I carried a five shot revolver with no extra ammo.

August 17, 2012, 11:57 AM	#86
IRONPONY Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2009 Location: houston \ flatonia texas Posts: 223	I always carry one extra magazine or speed loader ,depending on the handgun that I'm carrying. __________________ GUNS & FREEDOM !

August 19, 2012, 04:47 PM	#87
RBid Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2012 Posts: 581	I always carry a spare magazine, to cover malfunctions. My carry weapon is a Ruger SR9c. I used to carry a 17-round spare. I now carry a second 10-round magazine, instead. If LE or prosecution were to try to spin the spare magazine as a sign of aggression, I would be comfortable and confident defending the choice with the explanation that it was for covering malfunctions. With the amount of information and discussion around this topic, it is an easy defense. Switching to a second 10- was partly to support this, should it ever be relevant. __________________ Currently Own: Ruger SR9c, Glock 23 (Gen 3), Glock 19 (Gen 4) my blog: www.conditionryan.blogspot.com

August 19, 2012, 05:05 PM	#88
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 837	A guy here was ambushed buy 4 people 2 carrying ak 47-s. He shot one of them dead wounded another the others ran away. He had two mag-s and was down to his last two rounds. I bet he was glad he had the extra mag. How would the people that say 5 or one mag is enough have managed this situation. ?

August 19, 2012, 06:44 PM	#89
Constantine Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 4,047	^^^^^^ uuuuuh....? SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / Beretta PX4 Storm / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / Kahr CW9 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15 sent from my Android

August 19, 2012, 10:01 PM	#91
Tony615 Member Join Date: April 25, 2012 Posts: 35	I carry 2 extra 12 round magazines for my auto pistol. I have a OWB mag holder and a IWB holster.

August 19, 2012, 10:56 PM	#92
PT-92 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2007 Location: "Undisclosed Bunker" Posts: 1,296	Extra Mag/Speed Loader Litigation I always read posts concerning the potential for the increased likelihood of prosecution of those CCW individuals carrying extra capacity/ammo. Can anyone actually refer me to either a case or even documented attorneythat speaks to this issue (or non-issue)? I have written it off as an 'old wives' tale' (kind of like the .22lr is responsible for more deaths than any other caliber--again, where is the empirical evidence of such)? -Cheers __________________ NRA Life Member “A free people ought...to be armed..." ―George Washington

August 21, 2012, 09:24 AM	#93
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,809	Well, here's another angle on the question: I'd rather carry two single column magazines than one double column magazines. However, the only reason for that is because they're flatter. Mind you, the gun itself is thicker, any of them, and I've never seemed to let an opinion like that make a difference when buying anything. I never let reason stand in the way. Judging from photos taken at police shooting competitions in the 1950s, it was apparently not uncommon for detectives to carry spare ammo loose in the pocket, and even more surprising for that method to be used in a competition. But at least they carried spare ammo. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 22, 2012, 10:30 AM	#96
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 837	Quote. Woody55. I don't mean this in a sarcastic or insulting way at all. I believe I have "managed [the] situation" by not living in a place where anything remotely like that has ever happened. And while it could happen, my estimate of the odds are that it is so unlikely that it is not worth worrying about. So you would give in to terrorists and move from your home. ? Maybe that's why he won the military medal for not running away. The guy had numerous threats made on his life. He knew when he went to work that day their was a chance of a ambush but he went anyway. The chances of anyone shooting at you are slim. But i thought the idea of carrying a gun was just in case. PS. No insult taken. Last edited by manta49; August 22, 2012 at 10:38 AM.

August 22, 2012, 10:39 AM	#97
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 13,149	I don't know of a case where extra mags were brought up. However, we do know of cases and simulations where training, ammo, competition, the Internet cliches, gun type have been brought up or influenced juries. Wearing glasses influences juries. You need to have an attorney that can tell a reasonable story for all of your gear, training and competition. Jury research is clear that you can tell a negative story about a person based on personal characteristics and life style. Anyone is free to disbelieve that. I wouldn't not carry extra ammo because of jury fears but I darn well would have a lawyer who was up on the issues of jury influence and could bring in the appropriate experts to rationalize your choice if the prosecution makes you look like a nut. Frank has listed relevant cases in several posts. THR has a summary sticky of such. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm Being an Academic Shooter http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm Being an Active Shooter

August 22, 2012, 11:33 AM	#98
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,662	As far as defense attorneys go, should the event ever arise, you'll want an attorney who has experience representing good people, not just scumbags; and you will want an attorney who is either a gun guy himself, or who fully understands the value of defense expert witnesses in the fields of firearms and self defense. I don't worry about an extra mag or two. (Edit: I don't care about the legal ramifications of an extra mag or two; when carrying an auto, I always carry an extra mag or two.) OTOH, I don't have Punisher grips, nor do I have "Smile, wait for flash!" on or near the crown of my barrel. Last edited by MLeake; August 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM.

August 22, 2012, 12:12 PM	#99
PT-92 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2007 Location: "Undisclosed Bunker" Posts: 1,296	I think the case in FL. with George Zimmerman and his attorney will provide for a good example of a client/attorney/SD representation case (though as far as I am aware there were no extra mags in question?). I had a look and I do not see that his lawyer is notorious with Second Amendment like cases but I guess we shall see. I think he needs to make sure it doesn't get to a jury... __________________ NRA Life Member “A free people ought...to be armed..." ―George Washington