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Old July 17, 2012, 04:44 AM   #1
ronz
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Any good load data for 7.62x25 with unique blue dot or bullseye

Been doing some searching and have been finding a lot of discrepancies in the data
One recipes max is less than another’s min and most don’t list velocities probably because of a lack of published data it’s not in my old hornady book so ordered a new lee book not in there either
So figure I’m finding a mix from 7.63 mauser, 7.62x25 pistol & 7.62x25 SMG whatever anyone could find is listed as 7.62x25 tokarev data for pistols
I have unique blue dot and bullseye and would like to use the powder I have on hand
Bullets I have some 90g xtp jhp but need to get more what you would recommend as a cheap bulk bullet to get? What about using plated .308 110g?
Thanks
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Old July 17, 2012, 05:36 PM   #2
SHR970
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Lyman 49 lists data for 7.62 Tokarev / 30Mauser. 7.62x25 is the same as Tokarev but Lymans is using the leeser pressure data for 7.62 Mauser.

They list loads for the 86 gr. FMJ and 93 gr. FMJ using Bullseye and Unique.

The best available published data that I know of comes from Accurate.

Bullets...Sierra 85 gr. Hornady 86 gr. SP, or 90 gr. xtp. You can go heavier but you go into internet data ...at your own risk.
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Old July 17, 2012, 11:51 PM   #3
Clark
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
Back around 2000 Sierra and Accurate Arms were saying there was a hierarchy of pistol strength.
1) CZ52
2) Tokarev
3) C96 Mauser

Since then I have contacted Sierra and AA and informed them that the math and the experiments point to the real hierarchy being:
1) Tokarev
2) C96 Mauser
3) CZ52.

As a result [in part due to my diligence in enduring years of flames] and many CZ52s blowing up and hurting people with surplus Tokarev ammo, AA changes it's CZ52 load:

FROM: 11.7 gr AA#9, 4.72" barrel, 110 gr Speer Round nose .308 bullet, 1.3" OAL [1622 fps 63,866 psi Quickload]

TO: 08.5 gr AA#9, 4.72" barrel, 110 gr Speer Round nose .308 bullet, 1.3" OAL [ 1114 fps 22,953 psi Quickload]

To make a long story short... AA had measured surplus Tokarev ammo from many Eastern block countries and found all of it [except from Russia] to be 42k cup.
They worked up some loads in the AA facility with AA powder and tested it on one borrowed CZ52.

Since then I bought a dozen CZ52 barrels and got them tested at the jet propulsion laboratory on their RC hardness tester as ranging between RC25 to RC47.
The CZ52 chamber wall over the roller relief cut is .058" thick.
The Tokarev chamber is .125" thick.
So one CZ52 may blow up and another CZ52 may not.
I can't get Tokarevs to blow up, even with brass destroying loads.

What does it all mean?
Published loads are now down at the lowest common denominator ~ 23 kpsi for all three; CZ52, Tokarev, and C96 Mauser.

With a 90 gr XTP and 1.3", that would be 4.7 gr Bullseye or 5.3 gr Unique @ 23,000 psi in Quickload

I personally do not shoot my CZ52s or C96 much.
I shoot my Tokarevs with 110 gr and Power Pistol, and I run them hot.
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Old July 18, 2012, 01:26 AM   #4
ronz
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Thanks
Was working on the reply and rechecking to see if I missed anything
Have read about the cz52being weaker before even though it’s stated to be able to run the rounds for the SMG’s through them
Some of the rounds I did load are too hot for the cz-52 ill just run them through the ppc and check the brass as I go any indications of overpressure I’ll have to buy a puller

Could you post what you book lists?
I tried alient, accurate, hornardy sierra and a bunch of others can’t find anything for it
Don’t know how reliable the stuff I did find online is the same site listed 85g with bullseye 3.3g = 1200 fps and 4.6 = 1076
I generally reload for accuracy so there pretty soft around 700fps but these are just plinking rounds so wanted to load a little hot not max but close
did load a few 90g xtp with bullseye 3.6 & 4.8 blue dot 6.4 & 7.3 and unique 6.0
There’s a shipment of Yugoslavian surplus held up by customs probably should just wait for that to get released

Last edited by ronz; July 18, 2012 at 01:44 AM. Reason: missed post
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Old July 18, 2012, 02:11 AM   #5
Clark
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Sierra's 4th edition 1995 90 gr JHP 1.28",
4.6 gr Unique = 1000 fps Tokarev
6.6 gr Unique = 1500 fps CZ52

I wrote them and asked where they got the bogus info, and they wrote back and said they just printed what they read elsewhere.
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Old July 18, 2012, 04:55 AM   #6
ronz
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That seems really low for the tokarev so I looked up some commercial ammo
Sellier & Bellot 31011 Muzzle velocity: 1647 fps. Velocity at 50 yards: 1458 fps. Muzzle energy: 512 ft/lbs. Energy at 50 yards: 401 ft/lbs. Uses: Target Shooting, Practice.
Winchester MC762TOK Muzzle Velocity: 1645 fps Muzzle Energy: 511 ft/lbs 50 Yard Velocity: 1311 fps 50 Yard Energy: 323 ft/lbs Uses: Plinking and Target Shooting
7.62x25 Tokarev Wolf Gold centerfire pistol cartridge, 85-grain Full Metal Jacket bullet, 1,641 fps, 50 rounds.
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Old July 18, 2012, 10:22 AM   #7
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We might see the same thing with American published 8x57mm loads vs European factory ammo.
The American load books would have use shooting 30-30 power level, and the factory ammo has 30-06 power.

Load books are not engineering books or source data.
They are consumer level recipes.
If you want to go rouge and design your own loads, you have to know what you are doing.
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Old August 4, 2012, 03:27 PM   #8
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Hope the OP doesn't mind if I tack-on a couple of reloading related 7.62x25 questions.

* Brass - Disregarding all x25 milsurp, which brass is the strongest?

S&B
Starline
Converted .223 (which .223? Rem,LC, other?)
Other

I'm reading that converted .223 brass has a reduced capacity, so reduced charges need to be exercised due to increased pressures. How will this effect ballistics?

Thank you,
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Old August 4, 2012, 04:42 PM   #9
Clark
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In a Tokarev I can get more power out of the S&B reloads than the Starline brass... before loose primer pockets.

I hope you are not planning on loading that hot in a CZ52.

You can see in this 2007 thread I am predicting that 7.62x25mm data will be hard to find.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ighlight=cz+52

"Lyman Pistol and Revolver reloading handbook" 1994:

86 gr FMJ 1.3", 5.6 gr Bullseye
93 gr FMJ 1.31", 5.5 gr Bullseye


You will have to interpolate for 90 gr
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Old August 4, 2012, 06:51 PM   #10
JayBlitner
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No, no Cz-52 here. Only a Tok. I wouldn't mind buying loaded, but it's not typically available here (only two sources within 150mi and they look at you funny & shake their head when you ask for it). That automatically means shipping & hazmat, which prohibitively balloons the $.

If my sources are correct, the .223 base is about .012" smaller OD, is this critical? I have a cheap, local source of 223 and don't mind the hassles. But if it's not any stronger than Starline, there's no point going there.
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Old August 4, 2012, 07:26 PM   #11
testuser
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Hornady 7th Edition...

Starline Brass
Federal 100 Primer
90 gr XTP
COL: 1.320"

Blue dot: 7.3 gr (Max)

Listed Velocity: 1400 fps/CZ-52
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Old August 8, 2012, 08:44 AM   #12
ronz
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I also thought about cutting down some 223’s
But can get prvi or ppu for $.30 about $0.34 a round delivered by the case at aim & grafs
So just don’t seem to be worth the work
Any difference / preference for either one ?
Still need to get to the range to test the rounds I loaded
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