Self-Defense Loads

Old 454 · August 5, 2012, 01:01 PM

I have loaded up some Rainer plated 230 Gr. Hexagonal Hollow Points in .45 acp with 8.0 grains of A#5 under it.

Has any one used the Rainer plated 230 gr. hexagonal hollow point?.

they feed really well in my CZ 97B and no ftf problems, but was wondering about the expansion on these bullets.

Any info is welcome. thank u

buck460XVR · August 5, 2012, 01:16 PM

How do they shoot? IMHO, accuracy is much more important to me using the .45ACP platform for SD than bullet expansion.

Nathan · August 5, 2012, 02:43 PM

Me too, but I think my load is closer to 8.5gr. . .

**Unclenick** · August 5, 2012, 02:52 PM

That bullet will probably expand most of the time, but all expanding bullets are subject to some percentage of failures to expand due to conditions beyond your control (for handgun bullets this is often when clogged after passing through clothing or sometimes when deformed by hitting bone). Look at the .45 as pre-expanded, and don't fret over it extensively.

As a preemptive measure, I'll ask the membership not to hijack the thread off into a restart of the debate about using commercial vs. handloaded self-defense ammo. There seem to be some reasonable arguments on both sides of that fence and I'll leave it to the OP to use the forum search function to find past threads on the matter if he's interested.

Nathan · August 5, 2012, 09:48 PM

Quote:

As a preemptive measure, I'll ask the membership not to hijack the thread off into a restart of the debate about using commercial vs. handloaded self-defense ammo. There seem to be some reasonable arguments on both sides of that fence and I'll leave it to the OP to use the forum search function to find past threads on the matter if he's interested.

Thanks.

Regarding the bullet, i would expect it to expand faster than a normal JHP due to the weaker jacket material. Possibly fragment.

GWS · August 5, 2012, 10:56 PM

I will be interested in how those perform, also. I'm wondering what the price point is?

Berry's is about to release a new hollow-point that is designed similar to Speer's Gold Dot's (one of the most highly reviewed SD bullets). Both bullets are also plated bullets, so again it will be interesting to see how these three bullets compare cost-wise and performance-wise. Gold Dots are premium priced for a plated bullet, but they also have the reputation.

Berry's new hollowpoints (coming soon)

**Unclenick** · August 6, 2012, 10:57 AM

The Gold Dot is not plated, but rather is a bonded core jacketed bullet. I don't know how a softer plated equivalent will compare. Probably not exactly. I note that Berry's doesn't state specifically that theirs will be plated. Perhaps they're introducing a new jacketed line or else they'll do gilding metal plating like Hornady does. Just have to wait and see.

GWS · August 6, 2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

The Gold Dot is not plated, but rather is a bonded core jacketed bullet. I don't know how a softer plated equivalent will compare.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx

Look at steps 1 & 2 in the Gold Dot creation process. They may call it a jacket....and it is, technically,....but it's made "one molecule at a time,"as Speer explains ... Last I heard, that's called plating. A plated jacket is a jacket whether from Berry's or Speer....both applied "a molecule at a time." Speer says theirs is a very uniform thick plating.....and so claims Berry's for this new product.

That's exactly why Berry's Manufacturing thinks they can do one just as good......we will see. They sure look similar.

As for being a softer plated equivalent, we don't know the hardness of the core, the copper hardness or the plating process....and they're not saying yet.

Berry's

Speer

Quote:

Gilding metal is the same material most jacketed bullets use to wrap the lead core, an alloy composed of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc. Gilding metal has more lubricity than pure copper and has been found to produce less metal fouling and lower bore friction than copper. It is malleable enough to expand without breaking, but tough enough to resist further shape change once expansion is completed. It has been the standard for jacketed bullets for generations and is proving to be a very good choice for monolithic, expanding bullets.

By that definition, I don't think gilding applies to either bullet. Doesn't fit the one molecule at a time thing, unless there is a process to plate alloy's????? That would be something. Well can they? The Hornady GMX (gilded metal expanding) bullets are solid copper alloy like a Barnes. That doesn't apply either.

**Unclenick** · August 6, 2012, 09:53 PM

Thanks for the link. I stand corrected. I was confused by Speer's terminology. Bonded core to me has always meant a kind of soldering process. For plating that seems like a stretch of the term as I doubt it causes actual surface alloying as soldering does. But I'm not an electrochemist.

Yes, you can plate alloys just fine. Lots of recipes for plating brass (gilding metal is a low alloy brass) and for putting bronze (copper and tin) on things like your baby shoes (after first spraying them with a conductive paint) have been around for a long time. I've got a couple of old books from between the World Wars with solutions for plating those two alloys described.

I think there must be some kind of electroplating revolution going on in the bullet industry. Hornady's AMP process appears to be electroplating and has not only replaced their handgun FMJ ENC line, but is being used in their Z-max and match bullets. So I know it's possible.

SIGSHR · August 6, 2012, 10:04 PM

I would use these to duplicate a favored factory load, use these for practice, the factory loads for serious work. Just my $.02.

joneb · August 6, 2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

I would use these to duplicate a favored factory load, use these for practice,

With SD ammo over a $1 a round I find it to costly to practice with. If you can replicate factory SD ammo for practice that would be ideal. I reload my own, I tend to reload my own SD ammo and practice with that. It may not be as good but I have a pretty good idea were the bullet will go.

jmortimer · August 7, 2012, 09:44 AM

The Gold Dots will open up at very low velocity, 750 fps no problem. 8-3-09 article by R.K. Campbell from Gun Blast Web Site
http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell-GoldDot.htm
Short barrel .45 performance - Speer Gold Dot 230 grain (velocity average 765 fps)

Expansion / Penetration Comparison

Expansion Penetration
Bare gelatin 0.73" 14.5 inches
Heavy Clothing 0.752" 14.5 inches
4 Layers Denim 0.73" 14.5 inches
After penetrating steel 0.51" 15.8 inches
After penetrating plywood 0.451" 19.3 inches

serf 'rett · August 7, 2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

but was wondering about the expansion on these bullets?

You've got them loaded - test 'em.

Use that hunk of ballistic gel you've been saving. What? No gel?

Well go the country boy route with plastic jugs filled with water (hope you like milk or have some use for distilled water) or you can dig out that smelly old foam ice chest, the one you use for fishing, fill the sucker with newspaper, water for three days (note to self:the large chests can become heavy) and test away.

Remember to shoot a few of your store bought SD rounds for comparision.

Old 454 · August 7, 2012, 03:46 PM

Thanks for all the info on the Speer and Berry, And yes I am pretty decent shot at self defence ranges, out to say 30 feet.

But I was more interested in the Rainer bullets as that is what I have access to.

They do feed very good in my 45 CZ 97B, I have as yet to have a failor to feed, or a stove pipe or failor to eject.

Just want a little more infor on the rainer 230 grain plated hexagonal hollow point.

August 5, 2012, 01:01 PM	#1
Old 454 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Location: Chesterton Ind. Posts: 822	Self-Defense Loads I have loaded up some Rainer plated 230 Gr. Hexagonal Hollow Points in .45 acp with 8.0 grains of A#5 under it. Has any one used the Rainer plated 230 gr. hexagonal hollow point?. they feed really well in my CZ 97B and no ftf problems, but was wondering about the expansion on these bullets. Any info is welcome. thank u

August 5, 2012, 02:52 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	That bullet will probably expand most of the time, but all expanding bullets are subject to some percentage of failures to expand due to conditions beyond your control (for handgun bullets this is often when clogged after passing through clothing or sometimes when deformed by hitting bone). Look at the .45 as pre-expanded, and don't fret over it extensively. As a preemptive measure, I'll ask the membership not to hijack the thread off into a restart of the debate about using commercial vs. handloaded self-defense ammo. There seem to be some reasonable arguments on both sides of that fence and I'll leave it to the OP to use the forum search function to find past threads on the matter if he's interested. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 6, 2012, 10:57 AM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	The Gold Dot is not plated, but rather is a bonded core jacketed bullet. I don't know how a softer plated equivalent will compare. Probably not exactly. I note that Berry's doesn't state specifically that theirs will be plated. Perhaps they're introducing a new jacketed line or else they'll do gilding metal plating like Hornady does. Just have to wait and see. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 6, 2012, 09:53 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Thanks for the link. I stand corrected. I was confused by Speer's terminology. Bonded core to me has always meant a kind of soldering process. For plating that seems like a stretch of the term as I doubt it causes actual surface alloying as soldering does. But I'm not an electrochemist. Yes, you can plate alloys just fine. Lots of recipes for plating brass (gilding metal is a low alloy brass) and for putting bronze (copper and tin) on things like your baby shoes (after first spraying them with a conductive paint) have been around for a long time. I've got a couple of old books from between the World Wars with solutions for plating those two alloys described. I think there must be some kind of electroplating revolution going on in the bullet industry. Hornady's AMP process appears to be electroplating and has not only replaced their handgun FMJ ENC line, but is being used in their Z-max and match bullets. So I know it's possible. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

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August 5, 2012, 01:16 PM	#2
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	How do they shoot? IMHO, accuracy is much more important to me using the .45ACP platform for SD than bullet expansion.

August 5, 2012, 02:43 PM	#3
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,323	Me too, but I think my load is closer to 8.5gr. . .

August 5, 2012, 10:56 PM	#6
GWS Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Location: New Mexico Posts: 688	I will be interested in how those perform, also. I'm wondering what the price point is? Berry's is about to release a new hollow-point that is designed similar to Speer's Gold Dot's (one of the most highly reviewed SD bullets). Both bullets are also plated bullets, so again it will be interesting to see how these three bullets compare cost-wise and performance-wise. Gold Dots are premium priced for a plated bullet, but they also have the reputation. Berry's new hollowpoints (coming soon)

August 6, 2012, 10:04 PM	#10
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I would use these to duplicate a favored factory load, use these for practice, the factory loads for serious work. Just my $.02.

August 7, 2012, 09:44 AM	#12
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	The Gold Dots will open up at very low velocity, 750 fps no problem. 8-3-09 article by R.K. Campbell from Gun Blast Web Site http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell-GoldDot.htm Short barrel .45 performance - Speer Gold Dot 230 grain (velocity average 765 fps) Expansion / Penetration Comparison Expansion Penetration Bare gelatin 0.73" 14.5 inches Heavy Clothing 0.752" 14.5 inches 4 Layers Denim 0.73" 14.5 inches After penetrating steel 0.51" 15.8 inches After penetrating plywood 0.451" 19.3 inches

August 7, 2012, 03:46 PM	#14
Old 454 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Location: Chesterton Ind. Posts: 822	Thanks for all the info on the Speer and Berry, And yes I am pretty decent shot at self defence ranges, out to say 30 feet. But I was more interested in the Rainer bullets as that is what I have access to. They do feed very good in my 45 CZ 97B, I have as yet to have a failor to feed, or a stove pipe or failor to eject. Just want a little more infor on the rainer 230 grain plated hexagonal hollow point.