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Old August 2, 2012, 09:15 AM   #1
Randyralph
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45-70 shot shells

Good day all, just wondering if anyone has a recipe for making a shot shell for a 45-70. I make lots of shot shells for the 44 magnum, but would like to make some for my 45-70 marlin. Anyone have any starting loads that could point me in the right direction.
Thanks
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Old August 2, 2012, 09:24 AM   #2
jimwill48
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I will get reamed for this but I just use a 2 1/2" .410 shell. Case will bulge and maybe brass will split but after 100's of shots never had an issue. This is for a single shot NEF. Learned this from some post somewhere...
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Old August 3, 2012, 11:01 AM   #3
Clark
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It looks to me that the .410 started out as a 2" to be shot in 45/70s.
Not with a folded crimp, but just a round card sealed with wax.
That would have been in 47/70 brass to start.
Now I see others speculating the same sort of thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.410_bore
Then, over time, the .410 body got skinnier and longer, and the rim got thinner and smaller in diameter.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have gone to 85 kpsi with 45/70 in a handi rifle and 45 Colt in a Steven .410 break action. That is the pressure where the brass [without extractor groove] starts to yield.

The Guide gun is not built as stout and those guns, and so by the time the brass gives up the ghost, the rifle might already be damaged. So working up a load until the brass changes is not a good idea.

The .410 is registered at 12.5 kpsi.
The 1885 is good for ~ 40 kpsi in the 450 Marlin.

What I would do is try to find some 2.5" 410 data, and use the same wad and charge for the 2" 45/70.
I would use a large pistol primer. That thin primer cup would be the canary in the coal mine. It will look horrible if the pressure gets to high.
I would seal the mouth of the case with a round card and wax from a candle.

The difference between a 2.5" shot shell with a crimp that unfolds and a 2" shot shell without one is small.
The pressure should be somewhere around 12.5 kpsi then.
If it is a little over it will not matter, as the 1885 has plenty of safety margin for 12.5 kpsi loads.
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Old August 5, 2012, 04:20 AM   #4
Scorch
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Quote:
It looks to me that the .410 started out as a 2" to be shot in 45/70s
COTW states that the .410 shotgun was developed from 44XL Shot, a 44-40 case with a paper or wood shot capsule. OAL was just over 2".

It is certainly possible to fire 410 shotshells in a 45-70 with no ill effects.

I do believe there were 45-70 shot cartridges loaded by the US mililtary. Someone who is an avid cartridge collector should chime in any time.
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Old August 5, 2012, 07:17 AM   #5
Mike Irwin
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They were called forager cartridges.
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Old August 5, 2012, 08:23 AM   #6
Goatwhiskers
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Clark, if I understand you correctly, you're shooting a .45 cal bullet down a
.41 cal bore in a gun with a cast iron frame, not steel. Not only that but the lug is soldered on, not welded. Your business, but I'd do some serious thinking about that. Goat
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Old August 5, 2012, 02:34 PM   #7
2500ak
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I remember reading on Wild West Guns site a while back that when they bore the chamber out longer on 1895's so they can chamber their .457 WWG Mag it said you could also chamber the standard .410 shot.

From their FAQ page:

Quote:
13. Can you shoot the 45/70 in your 457 Magnum guns?
Yes. You can also fire a 2½" .410 shotshell.
I thought about getting that done for a while, but decided I didn't really need it.
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Old August 6, 2012, 02:28 PM   #8
Clark
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Quote:
Goatwhiskers Clark, if I understand you correctly, you're shooting a .45 cal bullet down a
.41 cal bore in a gun with a cast iron frame, not steel. Not only that but the lug is soldered on, not welded. Your business, but I'd do some serious thinking about that. Goat
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

It looks like the Solder joint is .5" x 2.55" = 1.275 sq in

Silver solder joints are good in shear for somewhere between 17.5 ksi and 35 ksi.
That would make the joint good for somewhere between 22,312 pounds and 44,625 pounds of force.
The inside diameter of 45 LC brass is ~ .45" = .159 sq in.

The max chamber pressure for that Solder would then be between 140,000 psi and 280,000 psi.

In that .410 I have shot :
405 gr .458 lead .981", 40 gr H110 2.75"

That is essentially a 454 Casull double load with longer OAL to get the powder to fit.

Do I need to go through the hoop stress on the .26" thick chamber walls or the section modulus for the L shaped receiver, or the double shear on the hinge pin, or the lug...?

It is enough like a Handi Rifle that I have already done a stress analysis, so I just did it.
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"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
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Old August 6, 2012, 02:39 PM   #9
Clark
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Quote:
Scorch

It looks to me that the .410 started out as a 2" to be shot in 45/70s
COTW states that the .410 shotgun was developed from 44XL Shot, a 44-40 case with a paper or wood shot capsule. OAL was just over 2".

It is certainly possible to fire 410 shotshells in a 45-70 with no ill effects.

I do believe there were 45-70 shot cartridges loaded by the US mililtary. Someone who is an avid cartridge collector should chime in any time.
Sorry,
I must be getting old.
2 years ago at the Puyallup gun show, my brother bought a 44 shotgun for $110, and borrowed the money from me.
I figured out how to load it, and in the process learned some of what is in your post.
My brain somehow mangled the information.
What does it all mean?
I was wrong about the 45/70 fathering the .410.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Steven 44 shot b 11-20-2010 $110.jpg (95.2 KB, 18 views)
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Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
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