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Old July 25, 2012, 11:19 PM   #26
warningshot
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The OP said he didn't want a .22, and, and he is ammo cost sensitive.

You can buy a complete Mosin Nagant rifle, 100 rounds, including tax, license and dock fees, for $200. That isn't even half the cost of a SKS, Rossi...lever this and lever that rifle. Two bones won't even buy a half way decent scope and mounts. If it hurts you shoulder too much go Air Rifle.

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Old July 25, 2012, 11:52 PM   #27
tahunua001
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Quote:
You can buy a complete Mosin Nagant rifle, 100 rounds, including tax, license and dock fees, for $200. That isn't even half the cost of a SKS, Rossi...lever this and lever that rifle
that's barely half the cost of a mosin nagant nowadays. most of the sub-100 dollar 91/30s are either sold out or backordered for months leaving many in the $120-150 range. if you buy online you can expect a $20 FFL fee plus $30 shipping and handling so your super cheap mosin nagant has just jumped to nearly $200 all by it's little lonesome and then when you add a can of ammo which costs around $100 per can +$20 shipping and handling you are now looking at close to or exceeding $300 which is getting very close to the cost a a marlin 336 lever action rifle.

and this is all completely ignoring the fact that you do not hand a person that is inexperienced with rifles a 5 foot, 9 pound rifle that has significant recoil. 22lr, 17, 223, 357, 7.62x39, 30-30, these are acceptable calibers for new shooters to learn on. 30-06, 303 brit, 7.62x54R, 8mm mauser and the rest of the so called "mankiller rounds" are not in any way shape or form conducive to building marksmanship skills. that is the very reason why special runs of rifles such as springfields were chambered in lighter calibers to teach recruits on instead of throwing a 30-06 at them and telling them to shoot a bullseye.
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Last edited by tahunua001; July 26, 2012 at 12:08 AM.
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Old July 26, 2012, 12:40 AM   #28
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I see lots of pictures on the net of ruskie women armed with NMs marching to the Eastern Front to shoot German soliders. How did they ever learn how to shoot? The women I mean. How did the ruskie women lean to shoot I ask? I also heard accounts of 100 pound Vietnam combatants hammering our troops with the bone crushing-ill suited for marksmanship training-Nagant rifles.

Every gun show I've been to for the past 4 years, including a few days ago, has had at least 3 good examples of 91/30s for $120-135, and surplus 7.62X54R cartridges for .23 cents per cartridge, being sole in individual packs of 20. Often times MN are sold as CC&R so, leagally speaking, no waiting period and no State transfer tax.
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Old July 26, 2012, 01:37 AM   #29
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The .357 single shot is a nice idea if that's the caliber you'd like. I have some H&R/NEF single shot shotguns and they are fun to shoot. And I'd continue the search for a 1894c.

I found a used one this past winter. It's new enough that it has the safety (which many people don't like) but old enough that it was made before Marlin was bought out. It seems better made than the new models I see in stores today. Mine cycles .38 specials well (some carbines don't) and I find it somewhat similar to shooting .22 in terms of recoil, noise (my .38 sp. reloads are subsonic even from a rifle barrel), and trajectory. The bullets just happen to weigh 4x as much and make bigger holes in targets. Meanwhile, it's nice to know that, if I wanted to, I could also effectively take deer and coyotes with proper .357 ammo.

Last edited by idek; July 26, 2012 at 01:45 AM.
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Old July 26, 2012, 02:21 AM   #30
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The OP might want to consider an SKS.
A common unknown variable with the Russian MN 44 is how much wear the muzzles suffered. The Polish MN 44s are usually in better condition but are pricier.

I had two Russian 44s which made some Very large 'groups' at 50 yards, whether the bayonets were extended or retracted. You could not really call those patterns 'groups'. These rifles only used Bulgarian ammo. Maybe that was a factor.

My Norinco SKS with the fully-adjust. Tech Sight made a group at 50 yards which resembles a group with one of my best Enfields, also at 50 yards. Five of the SKS shots almost touched, and were in the bullseye.

Russian 7.62x39 does not cost much more than surplus (corrosive) 7.62x54R.
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Old July 26, 2012, 06:11 PM   #31
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I have two lever guns on my rack.

A Marlin 336 in 30-30 I purchased in 1972 for $50.00. I still use it regularly when I am hunting heavy cover in inclement weather weather.

The second is a Win 94 in 44mag. It is cute and my wife stole it from me. Has good accuracy out to 100 yds.

Every one should have at least one Lever gun.
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Old July 26, 2012, 07:00 PM   #32
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My Vietnam bringback was a Chinese Type 53, I have several M-Ns. As a piece of history, yes, as a first rifle, no, on a par with a K98.
My first rifle was my M1917 which I treasure, I fired Expert in the Army with the M-14 and M-16 but it was all those range sessions with my trusty old Winchester M-69 that made me a truly proficient rifle shooter.
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Old July 27, 2012, 02:30 PM   #33
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Quote:
I see lots of pictures on the net of ruskie women armed with NMs marching to the Eastern Front to shoot German soliders. How did they ever learn how to shoot? The women I mean. How did the ruskie women lean to shoot I ask? I also heard accounts of 100 pound Vietnam combatants hammering our troops with the bone crushing-ill suited for marksmanship training-Nagant rifles.
first of all. the russian army as a whole was essentially conscripts they were given almost no training and they could care less if you shot straight. their war strategy was very similar to the chinese in addressing the japanese invasion. "we outnumber them ten to one so as long as we kill one of them for every ten of us, we'll win through sheer numbers" was the main sentimentality. most of those women were volunteers that were basically laying down their lives for mother russia, a lot of them were just given a uniform and a pamphlet explaining ranking structure.

secondly, vietnamese troops were using the 7.62x39 round since hostilities opened with the french in the 50s. the vietkong were trained with SKS and AK47s and the ones that showed promise were given the mosin nagant for sniper operations.
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Old July 27, 2012, 02:59 PM   #34
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first of all. the russian army as a whole was essentially conscripts they were given almost no training and they could care less if you shot straight.
And yet they managed to kill 6 million Nazis. Kudos to the conscripts.
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Old July 27, 2012, 06:36 PM   #35
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And yet they managed to kill 6 million Nazis. Kudos to the conscripts.
uh...that's the total amount of Germans that died... total. I guess France, England, India(loyal to Britain), Australia(loyal to Britain) Italy, Greece, and the good old US of A had nothing to do with those 6 million deaths.

meanwhile the Soviet Union lost anywhere between 9 to 10 million and I'm fairly certain that Nazi Germany was responsible for just about all of those.

also, even though it would be awesome to continue debating history, this is way off topic.
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Old July 28, 2012, 02:26 PM   #36
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I'd opt for a rifle in 5.56/.223

It's one of the less expensive centerfire rounds out there, that's easy to find ammo for. Very accurate at the ranges you plan on shooting at. And can be even more accurate, if you handload.

Just picked up a CZ 527 Varmint for this purpose.

Good luck with your search and let us know what you decide to get.
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Old July 29, 2012, 10:32 AM   #37
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uh...that's the total amount of Germans that died... total.
I did say Nazi, not German. Probably should have said axis, but then, who would know what I meant. Even then, exaggerated, but probably 2/3rds of all German military deaths were caused by the soviet conscript. I'm not sure how many Japanese were killed by the soviets in 1945, but they did basically annihilate the Japanese Manchurian armies.

Soviet deaths were way over 20 million by the way, although only about 12 million were military deaths.
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Old July 29, 2012, 09:32 PM   #38
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My first rifle was a Remington 700. It's your basic bolt action rifle, they come in many different calibers. Great first rifle.
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Old August 3, 2012, 08:45 PM   #39
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In reading this discussion, I was interested in Jackpine's response about the NEF rifle in 223 fit with a 357 barrel. I dug in further and found this info on the NEF website that I felt worth putting here. I'm not sure if that means you can't fit a 357 or 44 barrel to a frame from another centerfire cartridge, but that may be a safe assumption. It could be that they're made lighter-duty than could handle more powerful rifle cartridges, but that could also mean different spacing of the barrel lug/action mounts as well.

From: http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/handiRifle.asp
midway down the page.

*Note: The frame of the 44 Mag. (SB1-S44) and the 357 Mag. (SB1-S35) cannot be fit with any other centerfire rifle barrel. They are capable of being fit with accessory shotgun barrels, but their rifle capability is limited to the specific 44 or 357 Mag. barrel that it is shipped on the gun.
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Old August 4, 2012, 01:32 AM   #40
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NEF/H&R makes two type of receivers: SB1 and SB2. The SB2 can use ANY caliber/gauge barrel. The SB1 is limited to shotgun barrels and pistol caliber barrels (basically stuff with lower pressure). So a .357 or .44 barrel can be put on any receiver, but if you buy a .357 or .44 gun to begin with, you can't stick a .223 barrel on it.

That's my understanding anyway. Someone should correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old August 11, 2012, 12:59 AM   #41
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The Russian military were Not and are not "conscripts" and there was 1 Russian woman sniper as I recall that had more kills in the battle for stallen grad the. All the male snipers put together. She used a m91/31 bent bolt mosin. So if a little Russian chick can stand the recoil then an American mans should be able to as well. With out developing "flinch" unless he has an extremely soft shoulder. No ofence to the PO. I learned on a 30-06 that kicked like a mule. I can still get moa or better groups at 100yds out of my remi 700 in win mag. How's that for kick?!
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Old August 11, 2012, 09:49 AM   #42
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For a first gun I always suggest a 22 (like a Ruger 1022) since you can shoot one all day for little money.
You say you have been looking for Marlins but having a hard time finding one.
If it doesn’t have to be a lever action try a bolt, Ruger makes the 77 in 44 Mag (which I own) and recently came out with the gun in 357/38. I really like my 44 and it will shoot 44 specials all day.
The only issue I have had is with longer heavier bullets the rotary mag won’t accept them although the gun will single feed them.
Stainless steel, synthetic stock with great Ruger Scope mounts. Great trigger and built like a tank.
http://www.ruger.com/products/rotary...57/models.html
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Old August 12, 2012, 01:34 AM   #43
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First rifle AR

Uncle Sam got this on right decades ago.

The M16 is about the easiest rifle for a new shooter to master. Low recoil, big fun factor, shooting should be fun..

When the time comes that the shooter wants a more powerful weapon, the skill sets from the M16 carry over.
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Old August 12, 2012, 02:42 PM   #44
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The common autos being the AK and AR guns are out of the question I think. AR guns are getting cheaper, but that's for the bottom of barrel guns. AKs are getting harder to find, used to be at every gun store. Prices are going up, target ammo is cheap. But anything else is expensive.

A good bolt gun isn't exactly cheap either, and a decent rifle catridge isn't cheap on ammo either.

Pumps and lever guns are not cheap to buy unless they are imports. Rossi and Taurus have decent stuff.

Single shots are nice, get a decent quality gun for little money. H&R/New England makes a gun in every common calumets. Rossi is a decent option too.

Revolving rifles always have the cool affect. Rossi makes one. you can get reproduction Colt SA carbines in .45 Colt. Another option would a reproduction bp Remington carbine and get a .45 ACP cylinder.

Here's what I suggest, look for a Ruger or Savage bolt action that's used. 243, .270, 30-30, 308, and 30-06 is what I'd look for.
Rossi Circuit Judge is a pretty nifty gun, but a lever .357 mag would be a great option. More than capable of 100 yards and around $25 buys 50 rounds. You can get anything from target rounds to hunting rounds commonly.
A Hipoint carbine is another option too. About $300 and $12 buys 50 rounds of 9mm. Also capable of 50-100 yards easily.
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Old August 12, 2012, 02:50 PM   #45
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If you don't want to start with a .22 .....

There are entry level scoped rifles out there in .223 (the most cost effective plinking caliber) for $400 or so .....

If you want to maximize your ammo dollars, get a Lee reloading kit....
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Old August 12, 2012, 03:25 PM   #46
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do a lot of shopping. Find one that fits you, and is pleasant to shoot.

The caliber should be one that has a variety of bullets and good availability. My first rifle was a Marlin 336 in 30-30 I still own it and shoot regularly. The bullet selection is limited and has some inherent accuracy problems.

My second was a Vouree Mauser in 243. It was extremely accurate for the first three rounds. (very light barrel) It weighed 6.5 pounds with scope. A pleasure to carry in the field. Sold it wish I had not.

Go to Wal Mart and check ammo prices. My recommendation would be a 243 followed by a 308 or 30-06 in a good brand rifle which fits you. As time progresses and budgets improve you can up grade triggers scopes and accuracy. Eventually you will have a custom rifle which will serve you for many years.

My favorite rifle is a Remington 722 in 257 Roberts. The rifle started as a 244 Remington with a butchered barrel and trigger. Over the years it has gotten a trigger job, custom barrel a Weaver Old style K12 scope. It shoots sub minute of angle every time I do my jog. Someday I may replace the stock but after 30 years it still does its job so I may not change anything.
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Old August 12, 2012, 07:21 PM   #47
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Ruger is making a bolt-action 357 now - should be a fun gun to shoot. 357 is super cheap to reload
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Old August 12, 2012, 07:46 PM   #48
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Not sure what a 357 mag rifle gets you. Maybe a short range deer rifle??

For a rifle, I would get a rifle round.

Good first rifle rounds are rounds like 22 lr and 17 hmr.

If you want something for hunting of some level, I like rounds like 223 Rem, 243 Win and 308 Win. My buddy's first rifle was a Savage 10 in 308 Win. So was his second. This is kind of the classic rifle. His first was the std Savage, which might be too light for someone to hit well with in the field.

Yes, weight makes rifles easier to hit with.

My first rifle was a 1917 Enfield Winchester 30'06 sporterized at 12 lbs including Weaver K4 scope. I could hit anything with that at 12 years old!

Let's talk action type's. . .Generally scoped modern bolt actions are the most accurate rifles. Here is a basic one. . .a Savage 10 in 243 Win:


Together with a 10x Super Sniper, it might look like this(rifle in pic not a Savage):


There are even some unique fun ones like the Ruger Scout Rifle which are fun looking too:


I like lever guns too. A pistol caliber carbine might be real fun. Don't underestimate their recoil. They can be snappy with little to no recoil pad.

If I were getting a single shot, I would likely opt for a T/C Encore or Contender due to the wider barrel selection.
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Old August 13, 2012, 02:57 PM   #49
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first rifle

i think for your first rifle you should go with a mini 14 or a mini 30 if you just wana plink around. not to expensive you can get cheap ammo and there loads of fun and suprisingly accurate. and if your looking more for a bolt action . i find mosin nagants to be very entertaining, you can just take it to a feild or a range and shoot or put a nice mount and scope on it, drop it in a good stock and take it hunting

Last edited by evilleprichaun; August 13, 2012 at 03:02 PM.
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:06 AM   #50
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I will add my vote for a switch barrel single shot rifle. They let you try different calibers cheaply, and two barrels will cover a lot of different shooting scenarios. Start with a .223 barrel for economy of ammo, and add something bigger down the road. If you use quick detachable scope mounts, you can get by with one scope for several barrels-- just keep track of how many clicks different they are in their zeros. You will probably need to fire a few shots to get them fully zeroed after switching, but they will be close enough to start.
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