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Old July 14, 2012, 09:46 AM   #1
Willie Sutton
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Wisconsin CLEO signoff for Trust ?

Gents:

Anyone in Wisconsin succeed at getting the CLEO signoff needed for an automatic weapon purchased by a trust? This is a Wisconsin requirement, not a federal one. Trusts can buy SBR's, suppressors, etc., without a letter but in addition to all of the federal forms, a dealer cannot deliver a machinegun to any recipient (trust or individual) without a permission letter from a CLEO. Not *your* CLEA, just *any* CLEO in Wisconsin. This does take away some of the reason to use a Trust, not all, but some. Apparently "one letter is good for life" if it does not specify the make and model though.

Comments from anyone who has done it?


Willie

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Old July 23, 2012, 01:30 AM   #2
tepin
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Willie,
Are you sure there is a state mandated sign-off by a CLEO for a trust?
The posts in this thread make it sound as though it is not a requirement: http://www.ak47.net/archive/topic.ht...&f=21&t=250707

Note these posts are from 2006. This post suggests that the DOJ is planning to get rid of the CLEO sign-off...
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=94076
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Old July 23, 2012, 07:27 PM   #3
Willie Sutton
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What my trust attorney informed me is that a recent clarification by the Wisconsin AG has resulted in an intrepretation that Wisconsin trusts need a permission letter for automatic weapons.

Note that this is a Wisconsin specific signoff to comply with Wisconsin law. This is not the BATFE CLEO signoff, it is a local letter simply authorizing the holder to posess automatic weapons.




Willie


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Old July 24, 2012, 08:44 PM   #4
tepin
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So... have you actually checked with your CLEO yet to see if they will sign-off? If they will then no problem. If WI law say a WI trust needs sign-off then try this (talk to a WI attorney first):

1. Open a "small" PO BOX in MN
2. Change all addresses in your trust to the address and county of your PO BOX and all references from WI to MN
3. Go to a Wells Fargo in MN with your trust and co-trustee and have them (Wells) notarize your trust (now you have a MN trust)
4. On your ATF form, put your PO box as the address of the trust and your WI address as the physical location.

I just mailed off my paperwork to the ATF to register a SBR. The trust address is my MN PO BOX and the physical address is my home address in MN. I had a NV attorney familiar with NFA draft my trust (I had to make corrections to dates etc... so read yours closely).

WI allows ownership of NFA items and so do the feds with a stamp. The ATF form 1 allows for mailing address and physical address and there is nothing I have found or seen that requires them to be in the same state (I am guessing the ATF cares most about physical location anyway). It is legal to own or manage a "legal entity" in another state so logically this will work. It wouldn't be any different than if I took my MN SBR & MN trust DOC to WI for a weekend to shoot - cops come I am legal. In your case, you live and shoot in WI, cops come to inspect your papers - ATF stamp, MN trust & no CLEO signature - no problem. If the law or AG findings specifically spell out "WI resident must have WI trust and CLEO signature" then you are stuck. If the trust doesn't have to be a WI trust you might have some wiggle room.

Again - if the head cop will not sign, talk to your WI attorney about loopholes. Worst case... do the MN trust and in 7 months the ATF rejects your trust and refunds your $200.
Not sure what else to say on this one other than... don't be a test case
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Old July 24, 2012, 11:26 PM   #5
Willie Sutton
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"WI allows ownership of NFA items and so do the feds with a stamp"

Thanks for the advice, but I have been given legal advice by my attorney that this is not legal in Wisconsin. Bear in mind that this is not my first machine gun purchase either... just the first in Wisconsin.


What I am informed of by my attorney, who specializes in this, is that Wisconsin does not allow the ownership of MACHINE GUNS specifically (not other NFA weapons) without a permission letter signed by a CLEO. That includes automatic weapons purchased legally elsewhere, so "importing" one from out of state is not legal unless you have the permission letter.

The recent change in intrepretation is that this goes for Trusts as well as individuals. This is a "recent" (within the last year) interpretation of a law that has been on the books for years, and the BATFE is aware of it. The intrepretation came from the Wisconsin AG's office. The change is that when the law states 'Person" or "Individual", the state now considers a Trust to be a "Person".


This is entirely distinct and different from the BATFE CLEO signoff on the application for the stamp.

Interestingly, it "may" not apply to machine guns firing a rifle cartridge.. this is "under investigation" by my attorney. He is doing his research and he will be the one contacting my local Chief of Police for the letter on my behalf. Just wanted to know if anyone else has tried lately to get a letter.



Here are the statutes:


941.26  Machine guns and other weapons; use in certain cases; penalty.
941.26(1)(a)(a) No person may sell, possess, use or transport any machine gun or other full automatic firearm.


My note: This includes any posession of a legally purchased machine gun brought in from another state either permanently OR ON A TEMPORARY BASIS. So... don't bring your Uzi in to shoot for a day from elsewhere.


Here are the relevent exceptions:



This section does not apply to the sale, possession, modification, use or transportation of weapons under sub. (1) (a) or (1m) to or by any person duly authorized by the chief of police of any city or the sheriff of any county.

Sections 941.25 and 941.26 shall not prohibit or interfere with the manufacture for, and sale of, machine guns to the military forces or the peace officers of the United States or of any political subdivision thereof, or the transportation required for that purpose; the possession of a machine gun for scientific purpose, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament or keepsake; or the possession of a machine gun other than one adapted to use pistol cartridges for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive.



So.. what it looks like is that PISTOL CALIBER machine guns are not permitted unless you are "duly authorized" by a CLEO, no matter where it was purchased.


Funny... I can buy a Maxim on a tripod but not a Sten. Go figure.



Anyone here purchase a machine gun in Wisconsin in the last 12 months? I'm really looking for a friendly police chief or sheriff, as the letter does not need to be signed by MY police chief, just "any". The good news is that one letter does it all, and is good for life.


Willie

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Last edited by Willie Sutton; July 24, 2012 at 11:43 PM.
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Old July 25, 2012, 08:44 AM   #6
tepin
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Got it. Good luck with everything... it will be interesting to hear how it all turns out.
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Old July 25, 2012, 03:20 PM   #7
Young.Gun.612
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I didn't think MN even allowed machine guns, so I don't see how having a MN trust would help?
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Old July 25, 2012, 09:08 PM   #8
tepin
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MN allows them... no suppressors.
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Old July 26, 2012, 12:14 AM   #9
Young.Gun.612
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Can you link the statute? i could have sworn I read that we can't have them here.
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Old July 27, 2012, 07:10 AM   #10
tepin
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Folks shoot them at the gun range all the time. The machine gun needs to be classified as a C&R. Same applies to SBS (shorty shotguns).

Here is a link:
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.67

Exception:
Subd. 3
(3) persons possessing machine guns or short-barreled shotguns which, although designed as weapons, have been determined by the superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension or the superintendent's delegate by reason of the date of manufacture, value, design or other characteristics to be primarily collector's items, relics, museum pieces or objects of curiosity, ornaments or keepsakes, and are not likely to be used as weapons;

And here:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/0...a-class-3.html
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Old July 27, 2012, 07:12 AM   #11
tepin
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I just noticed you are in Minneapolis.... Bills Gun Shop & Range in Robbinsdale will arrange for machine gun rentals.
http://www.billsgs.com/mg.html
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Old July 27, 2012, 07:20 AM   #12
tepin
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I found the administrative rule related to the statute I listed:
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=7500.5100

Quote:
7500.5100 DEFINITIONS.
Subpart 1. Scope. For the purpose of parts 7500.5100 to 7500.5600, the following terms have the meanings given them.
Subp. 2. Approved machine gun or short-barrelled shotgun. "Approved machine gun or short-barrelled shotgun" means a machine gun or short-barrelled shotgun that, although designed as a weapon, has been determined by the superintendent as not likely to be used as a weapon and that has been determined by the superintendent to appear on the National Firearms Act Curios and Relics List, as provided by United States Code, title 18, chapter 44, and as issued by the Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (Washington, D.C.).
Subp. 3. Bureau. "Bureau" means the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.
Subp. 4. Report form. "Report form" means the official form created by the bureau on which the data specified in Minnesota Statutes, section 609.67, subdivision 4 is to be reported to the superintendent.
Subp. 5. Superintendent. "Superintendent" means the superintendent of the bureau or a delegate.
Statutory Authority: MS s 299C.03; 609.67
History: 8 SR 243; 17 SR 1279; L 2007 c 13 art 1 s 25
Posted: July 26, 2007
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Old July 28, 2012, 02:30 AM   #13
Young.Gun.612
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So as an individual I could only own a c&r machine gun, but no other full autos? I know Bill's rents machine guns, but I didn't think Minnesota allowed private ownership of machine guns?
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Old July 29, 2012, 10:50 PM   #14
David Hineline
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Yes to C&R in Minnesota, some Minn. residents form groups and buy a lodge type property in South Dakota, and use that temp residence to buy their NFA and have a place to shoot.
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