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Old July 11, 2012, 12:07 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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Shooting on the move

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/should-...he-move/15210/

Interesting article on the topic. It caught me eye as I have taken classes where we practice some of the moves that the author finds less than helpful. I have to admit that sometimes I don't shoot that well on the move, although at the last match, I did pretty well. But sometimes I don't.

I do remember one stage. You started at a cover point, you had to cross a wide space to another cover point. As you went across the gap, you had to engage three poppers. I saw folks baby stepping across the wide gap to engage them. It took a bit of time and if you were shooting at popper 1, I don't see why popper two and three (if opponents) would haven't shot you dead. My solution was to skeedaddle (or at FOG, full speed amble) across the gap, firing the mandated three shots one handed at the poppers and go to cover. Yes, I missed them but that was ok, I shot them bang, bang, bang from cover. Seemed better to me that baby stepping and facing the opponent.

Some of the military guys who shoot with us, said that's what they would do. Just get out of the open.

Thus, I found the article interesting.

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Old July 11, 2012, 12:26 PM   #2
Frank Ettin
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Interesting article and thanks for posting.

It kind of seems, like many other things, that shooting on the move is worthwhile to have in your bag of tricks.

I remember a stage, at a USPSA match quite a few years ago, that was similar -- three targets that had to be passed and engaged. One passed close enough to them, and they were far enough apart, that I was able to double tap each shooting one handed as I moved by them at a fairly quick pace.
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Old July 11, 2012, 02:26 PM   #3
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I think the practice is good but education in the actual application is where the wheels come off.

Mr. Howe's article is very informative as well.
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Old July 11, 2012, 06:41 PM   #4
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Do this for an experiment.

Video someone shooting on the move. Then using that as the speed get a mover and duplicate that speed. See how easy or hard it is to hit that moving target standing still. I bet it is not that hard.

Then you have a choice.

1. Practice shooting moving target till you can hit them easily no matter what their speed.
2. Practice moving faster so you won't get shot so much.
3. Do 1 and 2 above!

But it does remind me of that video of the shootout in the drive-in liquor store. The bad guy decided to charge past the good guy who was at the checkout counter with his gun. The good guy took an Isosceles stance while the bad guy fired on handed on the run.

The bad guy got no hits... the guy guy hit him four times. I bet that was a bummer for him.

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Old July 11, 2012, 06:42 PM   #5
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I did a "Shoot with S.W.A.T." two months ago for their local benefit charity at my Indoor Membership Range. One of the 3 stages was two different course in one. The first was walk 15 yards to 5 yards and shoot on the move as many rounds as you could put on the target. Then the reverse 5 yards to 15 yards with as many as you could put on the target. The second was a rectangular course with 5 targets down range and you start back left from 10 to 5 yards and then across all 5 targets and then back 5 yards and across to the starting point. A rectangular course. Shoot as many rounds as you can get on each target, reload when needed and keep going. When going horizantal across the targets it was weak hand left to right and when going right to left it was strong hand right to left. Some of the folks needed the Safety Officer to pull them thru the course, me I almost ran away from him and when finished he asked "Do you shoot Competetion"? I answered yes and have taken 5 Gun Fighting courses in the last 2+ years. He said Excellent. The other folks just got a good show of how to do it. Once you learn how to shoot on the move and continue to practice it, you can get very good at it. I look forward to doing this again next year. The other two stages were fast rounds into two targets spaced at 3 yards from 7 yards and the "Mystery House". No briefing, just kill the Bad Guys and don't hit the good guys. If you had a high cap gun they wanted 4 rounds in each BG, if less then 3 or 2 rounds. I shot a G-19 with a Red Dot J-Point scope and Ranger T ammo. What a Blast!
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Old July 11, 2012, 07:01 PM   #6
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Great article. Howe has the training and experience to make that statement and it rings true. My basic training in the Army was just that, if you are being shot at RUN to cover.
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Old July 11, 2012, 08:16 PM   #7
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I think the actual application of 'shooting on the move' is different for the combat soldier, and the civilian carrier. This kind of leads to some ambiguity as to the uselfullness of the tactic, as demonstrated by Mr.Howe.

For a soldier in a combat situation, when under fire it would seem much more prudent to move as quickly as possible to the nearest cover before returning fire. Your opponents have indentified you as a armed enemy threat, and are actively engaging you with what is probably automatic weapons fire within the context of a military engagement. Slowing your movement for any reason will only place you in greater danger. Your opponent knows from the start of the encounter that you are a deadly threat and reacts accordingly.

For a civilian in a self defense situation it's different. Your opponent does not initially see you as a deadly threat. Your opponent is a criminal who has picked you, the victim, for any number of reasons, but most of all because he see's you as a 'non-threat' who will offer very little, if any, resistance. He/they do not expect or desire armed resistance from you, nor do they desire a gunfight. They would almost certainly not have targeted you in the first place if they thought that would be the probable outcome. This is were, I think, 'shooting on the move' offers an advantage, primarily as a shock tactic within the parameters of a civilian self defense encounter. Instead of being a relenting victim, you the shooter are now aggressively and actively engaging your attacker, catching him off guard by momentarily reversing roles and making HIM the victim. If this buys you a couple seconds to effectively get good hits on your opponent before he can react, then the tactic is sound. Even if you are wounded in the process but win, it is still sound, or at the very least worth exploring.

Alot of the training schools that now espouse this tactic cater both to civilians, LE, and the military, and seem to have made it be a blanket tactic for both civilian SD scenarios, as well as military combat situations. Thats were, as Mr. Howe alludes to, it kind of rings hollow. There two very different kinds of confrontation. For the civilian in a SD situation, though, I think 'shooting on the move' is a usefull skill and tactic to have. However, if as a civilian in a SD scenario you have been indentified from the start as a deadly threat by your opponent and are taking rounds, the usefullness of it quickly becomes nill... I'd be high tailing it for cover like Mr. Howe!

Just my OP, recognizing the fact that I've never been shot at and don't know jack.
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Old July 11, 2012, 09:16 PM   #8
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Dr. Meyer, discretion is the better part of valor. Why stand out in the open and shoot at a target when you can do it from cover? I would have done the same thing you did.
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Old July 11, 2012, 10:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
For a civilian in a self defense situation it's different. Your opponent does not initially see you as a deadly threat. Your opponent is a criminal who has picked you, the victim, for any number of reasons, but most of all because he see's you as a 'non-threat' who will offer very little, if any, resistance. He/they do not expect or desire armed resistance from you, nor do they desire a gunfight. They would almost certainly not have targeted you in the first place if they thought that would be the probable outcome. This is were, I think, 'shooting on the move' offers an advantage, primarily as a shock tactic within the parameters of a civilian self defense encounter. Instead of being a relenting victim, you the shooter are now aggressively and actively engaging your attacker, catching him off guard by momentarily reversing roles and making HIM the victim. If this buys you a couple seconds to effectively get good hits on your opponent before he can react, then the tactic is sound. Even if you are wounded in the process but win, it is still sound, or at the very least worth exploring.
Never assume.

If you are shooting, you are already in a fight. There are a lot of variables associated with any fight they are dynamic and rapidly evolving. Every bullet you fire has a price tag attached to it. I am all for taking the fight to the BG.

Too many people seem to get lost in the minutia of a "gun" fight. Once the bullets start flying the context is largely unimportant unless they are shooting at you with something that turns cover into concealment.
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Old July 12, 2012, 06:32 AM   #10
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I've had lots of training and shot competitively and can shoot on the move but being out in the open is a real bad idea if someone who has some training is shooting at you. Go to a Bianchi shoot with your favorite pistol and see how you do on the mover. It goes about as fast as a guy can run and my first try I hit it 48 out of 48 times. One thing I do know is the faster I am moving the less likely I am to hit anything. It's easy heal toe but at a sprint it's very unlikely I'm hitting the target. Here's about as fast as I can move and hit 50%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ti0BuiwPg
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Old July 12, 2012, 08:20 AM   #11
Striker1
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Does the moving target you described follow a predictable path at a constant speed? If so, wouldn't this make it possible to establish your lead and aiming technique during practice sessions?
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Old July 12, 2012, 12:00 PM   #12
kraigwy
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The CMP and AMU put out a Close Quarters Marksmanship DVD that is an excellent training tool or shooting on the move, with both pistol and rifle.

It covers:

Kit Set Up, 7 Principles of High Performan-
ce Shooting, Weapons Presentation, Accuracy, Targets, The
Reload, The Mental Game, Range Drills, The Ready Up Drill,
Recoil Management, Multiple Threat Engagements, Shooting on
the Move, Changing Gears Drills, Alternate Position, Weapons
Transition & Malfunctions.

The DVD is only $6.95 from the CMP bookstore:

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...4=&note5=&max=

Best $6.95 you can spend if you're in to action type shooting competitions.
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Old July 12, 2012, 06:23 PM   #13
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Yes the target is constant but you really need to try it.
You don't get to practice unless you are an electrician with a shooting range.
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Old July 12, 2012, 06:44 PM   #14
Deaf Smith
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I have my own private mover. Either a buddy pulls it or you can use pullys staked to the ground and pull it yourself as you move.



The large one you pull, the small remote controlled car takes a smaller target and is useful with .22!

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Old July 12, 2012, 07:30 PM   #15
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"Situation dependent" is what I agree with. For some mil/Le situations, you might need to keep moving while shooting to let the rest of your team enter and engage. If a person is engaged by multiple attackers at close range, being a moving AND fighting target may make the difference.

In a 1 v 1 encounter at short to mid range, I think most people would be better served with a fast and accurate (if stationary) response. I know that, standing, I can deliver a pretty good volley of accurate fire in a short time. Moving either cuts the accuracy or speed of the shots. In stopping any particular attacker, delivering multiple torso/head shots in a short time seems to be the winning combination more often than not.
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Old July 12, 2012, 08:17 PM   #16
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Fire and movement is bad enough with an M16 on rock and roll when your 21.
With a sidearm, at 61 years of age, one or the other,brother. A man has to know his limits. I certainly wouldn't break cover without some serious motivation.
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Old July 12, 2012, 11:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
(at FOG, full speed amble)
You missed all three targets. My thought is if the other guys are (at FOG, full speed amble) then they too most likely will miss. My thought is by stopping and getting a good sight picture at least one of the three might be hit, maybe all 3. Then (at FOG, full speed amble) move to another position. It is as tough for your opponent to hit while (at FOG, full speed amble) as it is for you. If the 3 are stopped and in a defensive posture, I'd been a fool to move in on them outnumbered 3 to 1. I will leave that for the heros and LEOs doing their duty.
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Old July 13, 2012, 08:56 AM   #18
Nanuk
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If there was a time when point shooting would be a lifesaver, this would be it. I do not mean hip shooting, blazing away. What I mean is bring the weapon up to point shoulder and fire. The method Jim Gregg uses is similar to what I was taught as a young pup copper.

15 yards is the maximum distance for this type of shooting to be effective. Do not move forward or back, you are not accomplishing anything, move laterally. Most effective when done explosively, nothing saying you cannot circle the BG firing. The situation will for a certain point determine what, how, where the fight happens.

One thing to remember, when you are in the most danger is when its ON. What I mean by that is if you miss the selection process, your first sign of danger may well be that sucker punch that seemingly comes out of nowhere. If we are very lucky, we see the predator searching for prey, or they approach and attempt to engage you in conversation to draw you in.
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Old July 13, 2012, 08:57 AM   #19
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I'm thinking that if the guys you are engaging are up to the same skill level you are, you are in trouble if you give them anything to shoot at. Practice, practice, practice.
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Old July 13, 2012, 10:29 AM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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I agree that the move across the open space would be silly in the real world. But it was the COF. Watching folks just stand there basically, taking baby steps with three opponents seemed not optimal.

It would not have been hard for the opponents, if real to shoot you.
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Old July 13, 2012, 12:01 PM   #21
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I think it is a skill worth having as there may be times you have to do it.
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Old July 13, 2012, 12:04 PM   #22
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If nothing else it pushes you to a higher skill level not to mention being a heck of alot of fun.
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Old July 13, 2012, 12:43 PM   #23
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Good stuff unfortunately I would bet most only learn the initial technique and never learn to push it to "combat speed".
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Old July 13, 2012, 12:53 PM   #24
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When most people find out how much it costs just to buy ammo to learn to shoot well they quit. Few of us ever get to the point that we get an ammo sponsor. I'm too old now to qualify for that.
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Old July 18, 2012, 06:05 PM   #25
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I wouldn't do well at all...I'd want to shoot the 'bad guys', THEN break cover...
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