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Old July 18, 2012, 10:24 AM   #1
south.texas.dead.I
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New concealer

I've just recently finished the Texas concealed carry test waiting for fingerprint appointment. Was at the class and was told concealed carriers are allowed to carry on school campuses (I'm a student) the law says we're not allowed to carry on the premises of campuses the instructor said premises covers the building and awnings extruding from the buildings. I'm not saying I doubt my instructor but would this get me into trouble? What are y'alls opinions? Also I was told there is a difference between printing and having a bulge.


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Old July 18, 2012, 10:45 AM   #2
Bartholomew Roberts
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This thread discusses unintentional exposure of a handgun under Texas law:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=488997

Section 46.035 (f) (3) of the Texas Penal Code defines what the premises are for the purposes of unlawful carry of a handgun by a license holder.

Quote:
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
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Old July 18, 2012, 10:50 AM   #3
Glenn E. Meyer
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The school can have rules about guns on campus. Thus, the police may not arrest you in a situation as described, but if you are a student - you can be thrown out, suspended or the like.

Employees can have guns in their cars.

I would strongly advise against having an identifiable gun indicator like printing. You may be legal but you might eat dirt. You can complain later.

Please do not mention that you will break a law or a school rule on this forum.
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Old July 18, 2012, 11:09 AM   #4
south.texas.dead.I
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post

Please do not mention that you will break a law or a school rule on this forum.

No sir, never. I'm currently studying criminal justice and thought this was an interesting topic.



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Old July 18, 2012, 12:10 PM   #5
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It is and no insult to you. I wanted to short circuit those who say - well, concealed is concealed - heh, heh. I always carry because - blah, blah.

Not a thing to say on a public forum.

Unfortunately campus carry was defeated in TX due to deliberate shennigans that included 'pro' gun legislators who wussed out.

Bah.
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Old July 18, 2012, 01:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
It is and no insult to you. I wanted to short circuit those who say - well, concealed is concealed - heh, heh. I always carry because - blah, blah.

Not a thing to say on a public forum.
Which undoubtedly happens. Concealed does mean concealed, but when against the law - well, I'm too pretty for prison
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Old July 18, 2012, 01:31 PM   #7
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OK this is the current state law concerning concealed carry at colleges & universities in Texas. I'm assuming you are asking about those places because you say you are a student and the carry age is 21 for Tx CHL so that rules out you being a high school student.

CHL holders must secure their handguns in their vehicles when on a campus. Tx CHL holders CANNOT carry on their person on a campus. PERIOD.

Your instructor was very wrong and should be told that. If he continues to argue that he is right, DPS needs to be told about him, and he needs his instructor's license pulled by DPS. If you violate the above it is a felony. The law before this did not allow CHL holders to store their weapons in their vehicles. The current law allows vehicle storage.

Non CHL holders cannot have handgun in a vehicle on a campus.

No one can have a rifle or shotgun in their vehicles (or on their person) on a campus.
-----------
The above is not a discussion of whether the Texas CHL laws are good or bad, just a description of what the laws really states. A person's feelings about a law is a moot point. Laws in Texas get changed every two years. While something is a law, it should be obeyed.

Look at page 50 of this http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/interne...rms/chl-16.pdf. Securing the handgun in your vehicle does not violate the above (page 50) if bystanders do not observe the weapon during the process of it being secured.
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Old July 18, 2012, 02:06 PM   #8
south.texas.dead.I
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobit View Post
OK this is the current state law concerning concealed carry at colleges & universities in Texas. I'm assuming you are asking about those places because you say you are a student and the carry age is 21 for Tx CHL so that rules out you being a high school student.

CHL holders must secure their handguns in their vehicles when on a campus. Tx CHL holders CANNOT carry on their person on a campus. PERIOD.

Your instructor was very wrong and should be told that. If he continues to argue that he is right, DPS needs to be told about him, and he needs his instructor's license pulled by DPS. If you violate the above it is a felony. The law before this did not allow CHL holders to store their weapons in their vehicles. The current law allows vehicle storage.

Non CHL holders cannot have handgun in a vehicle on a campus.

No one can have a rifle or shotgun in their vehicles (or on their person) on a campus.
-----------
The above is not a discussion of whether the Texas CHL laws are good or bad, just a description of what the laws really states. A person's feelings about a law is a moot point. Laws in Texas get changed every two years. While something is a law, it should be obeyed.

Look at page 50 of this http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/interne...rms/chl-16.pdf. Securing the handgun in your vehicle does not violate the above (page 50) if bystanders do not observe the weapon during the process of it being secured.
Are we talking about section 37.125? It just states that it cannot be used with intention to cause alarm or personal injury or to damage school property?


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Old July 18, 2012, 02:57 PM   #9
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37.125 refers to causing alarm. If it is noticed and reported then it is assumed to have alarmed someone.

A better section for your answers would be Penal Code 46.03 (a)(1) and penal code 46.03 1(f) and discusses carrying. Places weapons prohibited.

(a) (1) is physical premises of a school. That means ALL the property.
(f) specifically does not exempt CHL from offense.

Storing handgun in your car on a campus has been ruled (by TX Attn. general ) to be OK if you have a CHL. Walking around in the parking lot carrying concealed with a CHL is not OK.

Every time the laws change (every two years) I go to a Legislative Law update session. They are for peace officers to be informed about any new laws or about any new Attn. General Opinions which are called "case law". I'm a university police officer. On a campus, two sets of laws apply...Texas Penal Code and Texas Education Code.
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Old July 18, 2012, 05:01 PM   #10
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Remember to understand the defintion of "school" as per TX law...most states, mine too (WA) a "school" is K-12, not anything else.
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Old July 18, 2012, 07:27 PM   #11
twobit
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In Texas in this particular instance the weapon laws cover "higher education" (colleges & Universities) as schools. Each chapter of the Texas penal code begins with definitions that are accurate for only that chapter. Also true in education codes. For example, a "child" is defined differently in different chapters and the age changes along with the chapter definitions. Just something to remember when dealing with law books.
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Old July 18, 2012, 07:42 PM   #12
Rusty35
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Quote:
twobit


37.125 refers to causing alarm. If it is noticed and reported then it is assumed to have alarmed someone.

A better section for your answers would be Penal Code 46.03 (a)(1) and penal code 46.03 1(f) and discusses carrying. Places weapons prohibited.

(a) (1) is physical premises of a school. That means ALL the property.
(f) specifically does not exempt CHL from offense.

Storing handgun in your car on a campus has been ruled (by TX Attn. general ) to be OK if you have a CHL. Walking around in the parking lot carrying concealed with a CHL is not OK.

Every time the laws change (every two years) I go to a Legislative Law update session. They are for peace officers to be informed about any new laws or about any new Attn. General Opinions which are called "case law". I'm a university police officer. On a campus, two sets of laws apply...Texas Penal Code and Texas Education Code.
This is confusing me a bit.

PC 46.03 states

(c) In this section:
(1) “Premises” has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035

PC 46.035 states

(3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area
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Old July 18, 2012, 08:01 PM   #13
twobit
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Somewhere in a statute (might be in Texas Education code) it talks about school "property" which includes all the land around the buildings. I don't have the books in front of me now.
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Old July 18, 2012, 09:36 PM   #14
hermannr
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yep: exactly why you have to read the definitions, and apply them to what you are reading. In WA RCW 9.41 defines a "firearm" differently than RCW 77. A "firearm" in RCW 77 only means a long gun...never a pistol.
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Old July 19, 2012, 08:32 AM   #15
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobit
A better section for your answers would be Penal Code 46.03 (a)(1) and penal code 46.03 1(f) and discusses carrying. Places weapons prohibited.

(a) (1) is physical premises of a school. That means ALL the property.
If you will read Section 46.03(c)(1) it defines premises for the purposes of 46.03 as "(c) In this section: (1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035."

So "premises" in Section 46.03 (Places Weapons Prohibited) means the same thing as it does in Section 46.035 (Unlawful Carrying of a Handgun By a License Holder). ""Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

Quote:
Somewhere in a statute (might be in Texas Education code) it talks about school "property" which includes all the land around the buildings
That would be irrelevant to an interpretation of Section 46.03 since the term "premises" is specifically defined in Section 46.03.

Quote:
Storing handgun in your car on a campus has been ruled (by TX Attn. general ) to be OK if you have a CHL. Walking around in the parking lot carrying concealed with a CHL is not OK.
The Attorney General released an Opinion letter (96-009) dealing with CHL carry on the grounds of a scholastic event in 1996. This letter applied a more expansive definition of premises to include all of the school grounds. At that time, Section 46.03 did not define "premises" so the Attorney General elected to use the meaning from Black's Law Dictionary, which was more expansive and included the grounds of the school. Due to the change in the law, I am not sure this Opinion Letter would still hold up given the legislature's plain intent in changing the law to contradict the AG.

Quote:
Every time the laws change (every two years) I go to a Legislative Law update session. They are for peace officers to be informed about any new laws or about any new Attn. General Opinions which are called "case law". I'm a university police officer. On a campus, two sets of laws apply...Texas Penal Code and Texas Education Code.
It is interesting to see what instructions police officers are receiving regarding arrests - that is always a more reliable indicator of how to avoid trouble than the actual law may be. However, given the description of "premises" above, I am wondering how the university's lawyers arrived at their interpretation?

Section 46.03 prohibits possession of a firearm "(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;"

We already know that the parking lot is not the "premises" of a school, and a parking lot is not a school vehicle. So the only basis I can see for their claim that walking around a parking lot would not be OK is the "any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted." The university would have to claim that the parking lot was a "grounds on which an activity sponsored by the school was being conducted." I don't think that argument is a very compelling one, though it does strike me as being an argument you would get to see a jury over.

And on a side note, an AG's opinion letter is not the same thing as "case law". It is just the legal opinion of the state attorney general (which given that he prosecutes violations of the law, is no small thing to ignore); but just like other lawyers, the courts may not agree with that opinion. Case law is a decision by the court on a point of law, and it is binding on all lower courts - meaning that the lower court is not free to disagree with that particular opinion (though they occasionally do so anyways).

One more thing - a violation of 46.03 is a third degree felony - meaning you lose both your right to carry and your right to possess firearms forever if you are convicted. So regardless of apparent grey areas in how the law might be interpreted, it pays to stay on the safe side and not push your luck.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; July 19, 2012 at 08:47 AM.
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