One ragged hole - less than $5K?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Nobody is a 1/4 MOA shooter? Really?

Reloading costs are virtually irrelevant. Many of us do it already and even if you don't you can buy everything you need for $300 or so. If you already reload, a new set of dies might be $35.

[kranky]

Just saying, ive never seen a rifle repeat .25moa group after group without reloads. Also, I have on occasion put .5moa groups on targets out to 1000 but I would never consider myself a .5moa shooter, let alone a .25moa shooter. Too many variables.

[batmann]

So many factors in shooting those kinds of groups on a consistant basis, that mainly will come down to the shooter. Most rifles (Savage and Remington come to mind) are much more accurate than the shooter. Triggers,ammo,type of rest, scope etc are all factors. Most of the time, if I shoot minute of Deer, it is good enough for me.

[barnbwt]

So long as a portion (most) of that pile of money is for ammo and range fees, yeah, tight groups are likely...

TCB

[frumious]

Well, well, well...I never imagined such a spirited discussion would arise from my OP. Seems like the consensus is "Yes, it can be done, and for a lot less than $5K". However, I'd like to point out three things.

First, yes, the money is supposed to get you from a position of owning no rifle, no rest, and no reloading setup, all the way to shooting those itty-bitty groups. Although presumably you know how to shoot already and have at least an inkling of how to handload.

Second, a whole lot of you are chiming in with your half-inch groups and whatnot, but please remember that I asked about 1/4 to 3/8 inch groups at 100 yards, not 1/2 inch. And as FiveInADime stated, "That last tiny little but of accuracy is obviously the hardest to achieve.".

Third, and most important, if you luck up and get a sweet shooter at the gun show for $100 then you must recognize that luck is the most important part of that acquisition. Same as if you luck up and get a current off-the shelf entry-level factory rifle (Remington 700 ADL, Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic, etc.) that's a one-holer. This can't happen all that often IMHO, else why would some manufacturers offer a "One MOA" guarantee? I think if you want to ensure you get a one-holer, you're gonna have to pay quite a few dollars for it. Stated another way, your run-of-the-mill $500 rifle may be a one-holer, but a custom $3000 job stands a lot better chance at it. Stated yet another way, the spirit of the OP was "Less than $5K and maybe a little luck", not "$1K and a whole lot of luck".

Brian Pfleuger, your post on how to take a factory Savage and make it a tack driver was very informative, thank you.

Thanks to all of you for your posts so far.

-cls

[Chris_B]

If I used Tiger Woods clubs, I'd still SUCK at golf, know what I mean?

Get a club made by Albert Einstein. Nice man, nice man. Made a fortune in physics

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by frumious

First, yes, the money is supposed to get you from a position of owning no rifle, no rest, and no reloading setup, all the way to shooting those itty-bitty groups. Although presumably you know how to shoot already and have at least an inkling of how to handload.

Second, a whole lot of you are chiming in with your half-inch groups and whatnot, but please remember that I asked about 1/4 to 3/8 inch groups at 100 yards, not 1/2 inch. And as FiveInADime stated, "That last tiny little but of accuracy is obviously the hardest to achieve.".

Well, that changes things... by about 1/8th of an inch.

There's not much to argue, really. 3/8th inch groups are not THAT tiny and $5,000 is a BOAT LOAD of cash to spend on a rifle, even including equipment.

Could you spend 5 Gs? Yeah, you sure could.

What are you getting for the difference between "needs" for 3/8s and the $5Gs? You're getting cosmetics, and a few luxuries.

The necessary parts just don't cost THAT much money.

You COULD buy a $2,000 Nightforce, but a $450 Sightron will certainly do the job.

Yeah, you could have the whole gun custom made by a world renowned gunsmith, but you don't NEED to for 3/8th groups. You CAN do it yourself.

The stuff just doesn't cost that much money.

Look, you can buy VERY high-end BR actions from Barnard, Borden or Farley for like $1,100. Barrels from Lilja are maybe $450 if you try hard, plus maybe $250 for chambering. That's only $2,000 and you're 80% done. All you need is a stock, optics and reloading equipment. Even a $1,200 scope, $700 stock and $600 worth of other gear only gets you to about $4,500 and that's going ultra-high end on EVERYTHING.

You could buy the scope, stock and all your reloading equipment for $1,200 TOTAL. That puts you at under $3,300, finished product, and that's still REALLY high-end stuff.

I really think that $5,000 is unrealistically HIGH, not low.

[Txhillbilly]

No matter how much money you spend on equipment,if you aren't worth a damn at shooting,your targets will show the truth.
Even if you are a damn good shooter,shooting one hole 1/8"-3/8" groups everytime you go shooting would be awfully hard to do or believe unless your shooting a 30lb benchrest gun.

Somedays,everything is just right,and you can shoot like You and the Gun are one.But most of the time,your in the real world,and you just shoot decent groups.
Most rifles made today will shoot MOA or better,most shooters don't!

[FiveInADime]

I contend that even 3/8" isn't quite what I imagine as a "One-Hole" group. If I had the skill and the rifle to shoot 0.375" with regularity I would be thrilled. What I envision as a one-hole group would be .25" or better. Yes, that 1/8" is a big difference.


Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk

[Rimfire5]

frumious,
I get the impression that you're 1/4 and 3/8ths criteria might be different in you're perception than in mine.

If you're talking about 1/4 (0.250) to 3/8 (0.375) inch group averages or medians, you are right it isn't easy to do but I provided an example of two rifles that did just that with two of their favorite ammos.

However, since you didn't state average or median group size, so I presumed you mean a lot of the time but not always which is how I interpret the phrase often stated on this forum - "one hole groups all day long". People who don't measure everything tend to dismiss the groups that aren't the best groups as "shooter error".

To shoot an average of .266 and .276 with its favorite loads, both of which are under 3/8ths (0.375) by a good bit, my CZ 223 that I mentioned in post #19 above had to shoot about half of those groups under your magic 1/4 inch lower bound. The CZs best groups in those averages included groups at 0.147, 0.162, 0.182, 0.201, 0.205, 0.210, 0.227 inches all of which are well under your 1/4 inch criteria.

The performance is under 0.375 with both of its favorite loads so the CZ meets your 3/8ths upper bound for average and is slightly higher than your 1/4 inch criteria.
My Remington 700 had two favorite ammo averages just under or at .375.
Both rifles were under $1,200 including the scopes.

If that doesn't meet your criteria, I would suggest you be more explicit about your criteria. A 1/4 inch or 3/8th median group criteria would include groups that were larger than the criteria about 1/2 the time. That is the way averages and medians work.

[impalacustom]

ive never seen a rifle repeat .25moa group after group without reloads

You need to get out more than. A 6mmbr will do it all day long with Lapua ammo. Also Brian Litz sells some extremely accurate ammo.

To the OP, there are very few custom built rifles over $5k, with glass and everything to go with it, yes but not just the rifle.

[oneshot onekill]

I'm not a Benchrest shooter so I can't speak intelligently about those rifles. I'm a Tactical Longrange shooter and in a past life did it for a living. In my world it was about first shot accuracy, precision, repeatability and ruggedness. To have all of these you simply have to buy an expensive setup... Period. Sure, most decent rifles nowadays are capable of great groups and many shooters use those rifles to their potential. But take that inexpensive setup and drag it around in the rocks, drop it, generally just beat it up and expect it to keep absolute zero first time, every time. No "foulers", no warm up. Cold-bore, first shot bullseye... Not likely.
Oh, and try this with your $250 scope. Zero it at 100yds., using whatever means you like find a target at an unknown distance, figure out the distance, adjust your scope using your 1/4 minute, or 1/8 minute or whatever "clicks" to be zero'd at that distance, and take one shot and have it be within 1moa of the bullseye (which isn't really asking much because at 1000yds you'd miss a human). Now spin it quickly back to your 100yd. zero and make a 100yd. one-shot bullseye.

There's a reason for Premier, S&B, US Optics etc., scopes being $2000+. There's a reason an Accuracy International AIAW is $4000+.

...FWIW

[FiveInADime]

Originally Posted by oneshot onekill

I'm not a Benchrest shooter so I can't speak intelligently about those rifles. I'm a Tactical Longrange shooter and in a past life did it for a living. In my world it was about first shot accuracy, precision, repeatability and ruggedness. To have all of these you simply have to buy an expensive setup... Period. Sure, most decent rifles nowadays are capable of great groups and many shooters use those rifles to their potential. But take that inexpensive setup and drag it around in the rocks, drop it, generally just beat it up and expect it to keep absolute zero first time, every time. No "foulers", no warm up. Cold-bore, first shot bullseye... Not likely.
Oh, and try this with your $250 scope. Zero it at 100yds., using whatever means you like find a target at an unknown distance, figure out the distance, adjust your scope using your 1/4 minute, or 1/8 minute or whatever "clicks" to be zero'd at that distance, and take one shot and have be within 1moa of the bullseye (which isn't really asking much because at 1000yds you'd miss a human). Now spin it quickly back to your 100yd. zero and make a 100yd. one-shot bullseye.

There's a reason for Premier, S&B, US Optics etc., scopes being $2000+. There's a reason an Accuracy International AIAW is $4000+.

...FWIW

Uh?? 10" from bull would be a hit on me, Lol.

Precision duty rifles are obviously a different story than hunting and bencher rifles but i'm sure there are plenty of rugged accurate rifles at the range and in the hunting fields.

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well, I've got no plans to drag my rifle through rocks or generally beat it up and in 30+ years of owning guns, I haven't dropped one yet.

Oh, and my $240 scope adjusts and returns just fine and dandy, thank you.

None of which, mind you, really has anything to do with the OP.

It's pretty obvious that an excellent rifle with high-end equipment top to bottom can be had for far less than $5,000.

[old roper]

Here is a source for used accurate rifles

http://www.benchrest.com/shooterscorner/thelist.pdf

[oneshot onekill]

Brian... You're a recreational or competitive civilian shooter and God bless you for that. You're probably a much better shot than I. I'm sure you have perfectly acceptable results with a much less expensive rig. As do most others. I was simply justifying the cost of a good Tactical Rig.

Of course your scope adjusts and returns just fine and dandy. If they didn't adjust they would be useless. Inexpensive scopes just don't adjust consistently. I'm talking about using, say, a Mildot reticle to range a target, adjusting your scope using only whatever MOA clicks it employs, taking one shot and having it be on target. Then using the same number of clicks to return your scope to its original zero and having it still be on-target at the original range it was zero'd at. Most inexpensive scopes are not precise enough to do that accurately. If you have a physical "Stop" at the original range it will come back fine... Maybe. But if you don't, it won't. a Sniper has to KNOW his equipment will function precisely and consistently EVERY TIME.
Even though Snipers try as hard as they can to not mis-treat their equipment, sometimes circumstances don't allow for that. It's those times that the equipment needs to be as rock-solid as possible along with being precision. There's just a price tag that comes with that kind of assurance.

No disrespect to the vast majority of shooters. I know a lot of you can shoot "Bug-holes" at 300yds. "all day long" with your $500 Savage and $250 scope...(sarcasm). Just passing along what I know... From experience.

[Brian Pfleuger]

You're also passing along assumptions that no one ever claimed and requirements not included in the OP, and I don't say that with sarcasm.

The OP wants 1/4-3/8 groups at 100 yards and says it can be done for $5,000.

No snipers. No dragging equipment through rocks.

$500 Savages and $250 scopes are used as an example of how little can do how much, not the end all be all of rifles. It's funny, it's not "experience" unless it's what "you've" done. No matter that thousands of us rednecks have killed millions of prairie dogs and woodchucks, consistently, at hundreds of yards with rigs that cost less than a car, year after year, for decades.

We don't compete, don't name things "tactical" and we don't shoot 30 rounds to call it a group, so we don't count.

I don't shoot bug-hole groups all day long at 300 yards. I do shoot groups around an inch at 300 yards though. Pretty darn regularly, with my $450 Ruger and $250 Mueller scope. That same gun shoots 1/2" or less at 100, all the time, pretty much every time, unless I screw it up.

Now, there's no doubt that each smaller increment costs more money. No doubt at all. The question is, since I know that all kinds of factory rifles, that cost anything from $450-$800 and topped with optics from $250-$500, can RELIABLY shoot around a 1/2", quite easily...

What does that extra 1/8-1/4" cost?

$4,000 for another 1/8"? Really?

Ya'll can argue yourselves to death from here on... I've said my piece, I've seen it with my own eyes from my own gun, and there's nothing special about the gun and most CERTAINLY not my shooting. You spend your money, I'll spend mine.

[oneshot onekill]

Well... Let me clarify something first and foremost. I DO NOT own a $5000.00 rifle rig of any kind. Tactical or otherwise. My most expensive Rig cost me $1700.00 and is a "used" former Police Department Sniper rifle. It's a Remington receiver with Shilen Barrel and Trigger, Sako-style extractor and Chet Brown Stock... Topped with a Leupold 10x scope. I was simply justifying the $5000.00 price tag on some of the very accurate rifle/scope combinations and explaining why they cost that much.

No need to get all uppity about it. No offense but you don't know me... Who or What I've hunted, where I've hunted... what firearms I've owned, shot, tested, broke, fixed. Just like you, I know what I can do and what I have done... and, for that matter, how "Redneck" I am. I've bought, sold, traded and shot too many firearms to count for the last 40 years.

I really don't know why I waste my time on forums...

[frumious]

OK, I have my answer I think Thanks to everyone...in related news looks like there is hope for my handloads and my Vanguard after all (with a little luck).

Brian, please close this one down. Looks like it is headed south

-cls

[hooligan1]

Well, here we go, (some of us sideways),,, let's just say that the OP's original question = yes.
I traded a stuffed bobcat for a Savage 110, .270 win,(350.00)+ scope,(189.00) rings and bases,(50.00). So for under $600.00, and some lengthy handload testing sessions, I got this rifle to shoot under a 1/4 inch.

Now I would sell that sucker for half that $5000.00 if anybodies interested.?!

[mes228]

Some time ago I purchased the Thompson Center cheap model bolt action rifle. I believe it's the "Venture" model in .270 caliber. It is the most accurate rifle I've owned and I've owned a lot. Any 130 grain ammo from Walmart will shoot significantly less than 1" from a Lead Sled. Also the groups do not wander or increase as the barrel heats up. I've had rifles that cost $3k ++ and were custom that would not shoot with this el cheapo TC. Perhaps I got an exceptional one as even the trigger is incredibly good.

[kraigwy]

I'm calling horse pucky on the need for $5K or so to get an accurate rifle.

Taking the shooter out of the equation (which you can do by locking the rifle into a vice) you can do it for a heck of a lot less then 5K.

Read the "Secrets of the Huston Warehouse"

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

Then study Dr. F. Mann (inventor of the Mann Accuracy Device used by the army and military ammo contractors to test ammo) and his work on the subject. "The Bullet's Flight From Powder to Target". Dr Mann spent his life trying to get bullets to go into the same hole.

The two mention works were written nearly a centry apart but pretty much say the same thing.

"The ARC" or The two most critical aspect of accuracy is case prep and perfectly seating the bullet in the case so it enters the barrel straight.

That doesn't take a $5000 + rifle. Sure a rifle has to be put together right but that doesn't take a lot of money, just a bit of time and attention to details.

Here's an ideal to prove my point. I mentioned the Mann Accuracy Device. They are extremely accurate. Wont find many more accurate. You can buy them from the CMP for $500 bucks in 308, using a Model 1903a3 action. Don't spend any more money on the device. Build a vice to hold the device, load up some 135 gn SMKs and 3031 powder and you'll get groups better then just about any $5000 rifle on the market.

The trick is loading the ammo, case prep and a good competition seating die.

Here is a picture of my Mann device, a 5.56 verson on a Remington action.



The 5.56 version doesn't have a stock of any kind. But I could by any cheap stock, glass the crap out of it and with no modification to the device I can have a dern accurate rifle. The army used 52 gn SMKs with 25 grns of 3031 in remington cases getting about .19 inch groups as a test round for the device.

The 308 version from the CMP had a modified (cut up)1903 stock.

Check out the bottom of the page of this link for the CMP Mann Devices.

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/miscellaneous.htm

DO NOT get hung up on the ideal that you need big bucks to have an accurate rifle. One of the most accurate rifles I have is my wife's 243 I built on a Model 70 action. I did the work, and excluding glass, I have less then $225 in the rifle.

The 243 is one weird cartridge, it will shoot in just about any rifle you fire it in. Hard to screw it up, problem is it eats up barrels, Hunters wont notice, but target shooters will, what with practice and competitions.

[mnhntr]

My Savage LRP in .260 will do that and it cost me less than 1k.

[Art Eatman]

Horse to barn. Saddle to tack room. Rifle to rack. 'Nuf.

[wyop]

BTW, for those curious about actual record-setting groups of five and then aggregates across several groups of five shots, here's what money and attention to detail is able to produce for groups:

http://www.benchrest.com/records.htm