The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 21, 2012, 10:23 PM   #76
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,403
Quote:
And this is true no matter what part of their body you aim at.
Absolutely. A few years ago, we had an ND at an oudoor range. The guy put a round of .380 ball through his arm just above the elbow. He knicked an artery and we very nearly lost him. Same goes for the kneecap. There's a big artery right there, and "knee capping" could cause a fragment of bullet or bone to puncture it.

If I shoot someone, there is no way I can guarantee what level of injury I will inflict. Therefore, I must assume that any shot will take a life.

And I have to think and act accordingly.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old June 21, 2012, 11:15 PM   #77
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 478
You're assuming a person who immediately reacts when presented with a gun by running toward you full speed with an inferior weapon. I'm sorry that just doesn't make any sense. Most criminals are cowards. If you assume that such a person exists then I assure you any handgun you carry will not stop them before they reach you unless you shut off their central nervous system (brain or spinal cord). The only other effective tactic is breaking bones they need to run. I was always the one to who had to be first in on a takedown on an adrenalized or drugged patient let me assure you their pain receptors did not work at all, they could toss you around like a rag doll while horribly,even fatally injured. I was first in on the team because I could survive the beating that was unavoidable at that point. I'm a certified instructor in self defense/patient restraint under these circumstances. We taught our students what these people were capable of and why they could do it. That is the only person in my experience that reacts that way druggies or psych patients. Until you've seen it it's hard to even imagine humans being capable of the things I've seen. Unless what you are shooting these guys with leaves a hole the size of a baseball they are perfectly capable of killing you while bleeding to death. That being said yes some training is on the agenda for me when I get the time and money. My advice if you're dealing with these guys involves running like deer if at all possible. Since opinion is running so solidly against me I'm certainly willing to rethink this but can anyone rufute the points I made?
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old June 21, 2012, 11:20 PM   #78
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,099
Not my 1st or even 2nd choice but beats fists, feet and foul language.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old June 21, 2012, 11:39 PM   #79
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubcedar
You're assuming a person who immediately reacts when presented with a gun by running toward you full speed with an inferior weapon. I'm sorry that just doesn't make any sense. ...
I don't really see that anyone is assuming that. What can be expected is that an assailant with a contact weapon may charge you before you have drawn your gun. And of course that puts you well behind the curve.

And even if you start to draw the gun first, there are some who will think that they can still beat your draw and brain you or stab you before you can fire. Often they will be right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubcedar
...If I have a .22 chest shots are not likely to be immediately effective. I've seen enough GSW's to state that easily. If he is threatening me rather than tackling me, Immoblizing his leg makes more sense. A head shot is the next choice but listen to the old Brain injury nurse, I've seen more people live through a .22 to the head than you think! In the tackling/rushing scenario I wouldn't be confident of any of my.22 slugs being accurate and effective. I might very well wait until first contact and try to put multiple rounds in his head. Chest shots from a .22 would be as far down on my list of actions as possible, people can die from them but it doesn't happen quickly...
This is a pretty good outline of some of the limitations of a .22.

And while immobilizing the leg might sound good, it's a small target and would be shot under significant stress. I've trained with some very fine shooters, and I don't know that I've every trained with anyone who could reliably draw and hit a knee quickly, especially if the assailant were moving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubcedar
...In the scenario where he hasn't rushed you yet your best chance to stop him is to CRIPPLE HIM. I shoot his knee, you shoot his chest, which of us is more likely to have to continue to fight him?...
As far as that goes, in a high stress, dynamic violent encounter hitting with a shot to the torso is far more likely than hitting with a shot to the knee. And that conclusion is based in part on my experience with dynamic training where things happen quickly. Note that even if both of you are static at the same time, that state of affairs in highly unlikely to continue for long.

As far a a crippling shot, a shot to the pelvis might be a better choice than the knee. But reliably breaking the pelvis will require a solid hit with a round capable of meaningful penetration and able to hit the bone hard. Sort of takes the .22 out of the running for that purpose.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 22, 2012, 12:01 AM   #80
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
there is always a better chance you will miss the target/assailant if you try to wound too. This isn't just because of a smaller target rather than 'center mass'...slight adjustments from norm cause misses you might not think would occur. If you aren't an expert shooter, one day while firing your pistol center mass change all of a sudden and try a head shot as an example(many targets don't have limbs and this is only an example). Don't be shocked if you clearly miss the target. It has already been mentioned, but if you don't shoot center mass and shoot to wound it is considered deadly force just by firing the weapon at someone. This is always the case. You would also have other unmentioned variables and worms climbing out of the can if you tried to wound. Either way people are trained to say they aimed center mass to stop a threat regardless of the outcome(you wouldn't say I aimed for the head as an example). One is playing with fire when not aiming center mass(In My Opinion)
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old June 22, 2012, 06:19 AM   #81
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Posted by scrubcedar: You're assuming a person who immediately reacts when presented with a gun by running toward you full speed with an inferior weapon. I'm sorry that just doesn't make any sense. Most criminals are cowards.

Since opinion is running so solidly against me I'm certainly willing to rethink this but can anyone rufute the points I made?
Even is it is true that "most criminals are cowards", one has to ask whether you want to bet everything on that assumption.

And even though a person who is not armed with a firearm is unlikely to start an attack after having been presented with a firearm (police and parole officers I have spoken to tell me that users of methamphetamines may be exceptions), that's not the real question.

There are two real questions; Frank Ettin has already addressed the first, which has two parts:
  1. Do you really think you would have any material chance of hitting in the knee someone who has charged you before you have either started or completed your draw; and considering your comment that hits in the chest are likely to be inneffective, do you really think it wise to choose a .22?
  2. If he does not attempt to charge you, just how would you justify shooting him in the knee?
OldMarksman is offline  
Old June 22, 2012, 10:47 AM   #82
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 478
I thought we were assuming a .22 for the purposes of the thread. In Colorado as well as Utah if someone threatens you with a deadly weapon you can defend yourself and we all know even from that far away they're still a threat. In the scenario I was assuming, a mugging, at that point you have every right to stop an armed robbery of you or anyone else with deadly force. In my experience bad guys, even drugged up bad guys, threaten you first then attack only when it's clear you're not cooperating. I've talked to a lot of assault victims over the years. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the game changes as soon as he is rushing towards you but to me it's two different scenario's. In your scenario my advice is RUN! Do anything to change the circumstances to where he must approach you slowly and you have the chance to shoot at his head from point blank range. A gun, especially a.22, is not a magic death ray it will not insure that you win the fight. I will say this again clearly, the second he is a moving target what I discussed is not an option. The point I'm making is that ANY pistol caliber weapon is marginal against a drugged up opponent. Random center of mass hits may kill him, but whether he dies in time to save you or others is the question. Choose your shots as carefully as you can and remember its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old June 22, 2012, 01:05 PM   #83
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Posted by scrubcedar: In Colorado as well as Utah if someone threatens you with a deadly weapon you can defend yourself and we all know even from that far away they're still a threat. In the scenario I was assuming, a mugging, at that point you have every right to stop an armed robbery of you or anyone else with deadly force.
You may lawfully use deadly force if you have reason to believe that it is immediately necessary to stop an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

If you have to do so, someone else will judge whether your belief had been reasonable, knowing what you knew at the time.

A man with a contact weapon at close range has the ability and the opportunity to cause death or serious bodily harm; if he has indicated an intent to harm you, you are in jeopardy; at that point, if you have no other alternative available, you would be justified in the use of deadly force.

But not if he should cease and desist.

If you were to fire at someone mugging you who had quickly stopped, you could argue that things had happened so quickly that you fired before it was clear that the attack had stopped. And you might well prevail.

But not if you had time to aim for his knee.

Your testimony that you had delberately aimed for the knee of a stationary man who was no longer making any overt attempt to harm you as you pointed your gun at him would likely defeat your own defense of justification.

Look at it this way. The law does not permit you to shoot someone because he might harm you, or because he had indicated an intent to rob you if the circumstances indicate that it not his intent to so at the time.

Rather, the law will excuse you if you reasonably believed at the time that you had had no choice but to use deadly force to defend against a clear and very immediate threat.

Have you considered getting some good SD training? They will explain these things to you.

And they will almost cerainly advise you to fire at center mass.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old June 22, 2012, 03:16 PM   #84
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 478
I finally checked with a local LEO on the facts about The laws in my area. He assured me by the letter of the law I was correct. He also assured me that here in Utah the laws were set up to protect armed citizens defending themselves and others. In my town I probably would have no trouble. He went on to say that any of the bigger cities I was in (in other words where I'm likely to defend myself) hate those laws and would find some way to prosecute me anyway!!! Even if I was found innocent I would likely ruin my life. He was quite critical of my CCW instructor over not helping me understand this. I was wrong. It is what it is. I'm probably going upgrade what I'm carrying now, 38 special rounds to the chest don't cause the massive blood loss needed to kill quickly. .45 Colt anyone?
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old June 22, 2012, 04:37 PM   #85
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Posted by scrubcedar: I finally checked with a local LEO on the facts about The laws in my area. He assured me by the letter of the law I was correct. He also assured me that here in Utah the laws were set up to protect armed citizens defending themselves and others.
Nothing wrong with your recitation of the black law. But you have to understand what it means.

You have to be able to explain why you thought you had to shoot. Had too.

If a man threatens you with a contact weapon from a reasonably close distance (and there's no really set distance, the Tueller drill notwithstanding), it is widely accepted that should he attack you, you could be in a world of hurt. If he starts to do so, you would be justified in drawing your firearm, and if necessary, firing. If you are sufficiently fast and well practiced, you have a chance.

You were speaking of deliberately opening up on a person who has not started to move. Not a man with a gun, but a man with a club, who is giving you time to aim at his knee. Bad idea. Trying to explain why firing had been immediately necessary at time would not go well, particularly under cross examination on the same points raised by you.

By the way, running backward and to the side could give you an extra margin.

And don't rely on a police officer for having much of an understanding of self defense law. They do not make the charging decsion and they do not present the case to a grand jury (if applicable) a trial jury. And it is unlikely that they have much if any experience in self defense cases.

Quote:
I'm probably going upgrade what I'm carrying now, 38 special rounds to the chest don't cause the massive blood loss needed to kill quickly. .45 Colt anyone?
You're objective is not to "kill quickly". It is to stop the attacker quickly.

Reread Post #59.

The only thing that I would add is that injury to nerves, tendons, joints, and ligaments can impair you attacker's ability to get to you anh hurt you.

Excerpt:
Quote:
So as a rule of thumb --
More holes are better than fewer holes.
Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
There are no magic bullets.
I don't think there's anything wrong with your .38 (it makes deep holes that are reasonably large), but I might suggest a (mm or .40 cal semi auto (more holes).
OldMarksman is offline  
Old June 22, 2012, 09:02 PM   #86
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 478
Thanks Old marksman, I actually made the same point about the central nervous system in one of my posts as well. As badly as I've been wrong about this PLEASE do not give lighter weight to my statements on an what adrenaline and drugs do to a bad guys abilities and stamina. I've never seen a broken pelvis from a bullet. That would undoubtedly slow the attacker enough. A head shot stops but also kills (normally, seen a few that didn't even know it, scary). A spinal column shot is probably the most sure, the shock from the bullet shuts down the nerves, then normally the swelling kills them (the nerve cells). I'm not sure what else you could reliably hit to stop them. A femur (upper leg bone) perhaps? The rest of the nerves are too small of a target, the rest of the bones too small, the rest of the joints not important enough. If I'm limited to the chest, I promise you if he is in good enough shape to be conscious he is still capable of killing you. Adrenaline, the true wonder drug. Are there other targets/scenarios I'm missing?
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 12:13 AM   #87
jeeplover1
Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2012
Posts: 24
I carry a 22 NAA pug in the summer.
jeeplover1 is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 08:16 AM   #88
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,727
Question: Is there a significant difference in performance b/t the .22Mag and the .25ACP in short-barreled pistols? I just wonder if the .25ACP's characteristics of better bullet construction, centerfire case, & semi-auto reliability might make it a better SD choice......
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......
seeker_two is offline  
Old June 23, 2012, 08:45 AM   #89
Aikibiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Posts: 109
If you really wanted a semi auto and money isn't to tight, how about an FN five-seven? They are light, recoil is negligable, and hold 20 rounds of much more capable ammo then any .22 magnum loading. Also since the OP wanted a LASER sight option the accessory rail will easily accomodate a ton of aftermarket LASERs and flashlights.

This is assuming lady in question is willing and able to put the time in to learn to use a semi auto. Some females just are not interested enough in guns to learn how to run a semiauto even if they want to carry a handgun. My mom is that way. She is accurate enough with any handgun she can control (has nerve damage making her very recoil sensitive), but does not have the mindset, desire, or time to learn how to load and unload , clear malfunctions, load magazines, dissaemble and reassemble, etc a semi auto. With her revolver all she has to do is know where the cylinder release and the trigger are. When picking out a weapon for someone else their willingness and ability to learn the ins and outs of that particular weapon is an important consideration. More so then caliber in my opinion.
__________________
__________________________

~Joel

TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!
Aikibiker is offline  
Old July 15, 2012, 02:10 AM   #90
Running Dog
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2012
Posts: 4
I carry an NAA .22mag ALWAYS......Will it stop an attacker like my .454 Ruger Alaskan? Not even! It fits in my pocket and even with a 2" barrel my .454 doesn't and weighs about 4lbs. I live in Fla. most the year and it's hard to hide my .45 auto ,.454, 92sf,Single Six, .45 SAA, T/C .44mag. ....You get the idea. I have a Ruger LCR 38spl.that fits in some pockets, but it's hard to hide anything under a t-shirt. I figure if someone gets ahold of me they might have a real problem with a.22 mag lighting up while pressed against their chest,neck,head or wherever I can get it. I'm too old to take a whippin' and too young to die and a.22Mag beats the heck out of knife or empty hand. Just my 2cts.

Last edited by Running Dog; July 15, 2012 at 02:17 AM.
Running Dog is offline  
Old July 15, 2012, 04:45 PM   #91
gorin
Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Posts: 33
If it is a choice between the .22 and nothing, any gun is better than nothing. If she can practice enough it will make a big difference.
gorin is offline  
Old July 16, 2012, 06:27 AM   #92
skoro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,752
I personally don't feel that a 22 is a good choice as a SD caliber, be it magnum or LR. But it's certainly better than nothing and will deter most attackers interested in grabbing your wallet or car.

Against a drugged up or determined foe, it could well be inadequate.

Each of us has to do our own assessment on the likely dangers we face and prepare accordingly.
skoro is offline  
Old January 13, 2013, 05:27 AM   #93
GunByte
Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2011
Posts: 16
The problem with all these caliber discussions is that they assume that you have to physically incapacitate a bad guy. However if you look at the NRA and other numbers the odds of even needing gun are tiny, however if those tiny odds catch up with you, the need to shoot that gun are even tinier. Then having to hit the bad guy are smaller yet and having the caliber matter even smaller than that. So much time and discussion is spent arguing about something that is either not going to matter because the great majority of people do not want to be shot with anything and will retreat at the mere sight of the gun or that most or all of us will never use our guns in our lives. Some are quick to point to 20 articles about this and that happening but they forget we are a nation of over 300,000,000 people so even 100 car jackings is not enough to warrant much concern. The real reason is that men like to carry weapons to feel powerful or to ease their fears. Most guys I know carry guns to feel safe rather than to be safe because they carry small guns in places that it would take them a long time to get to and either never have shot them or shot them rarely. Men always wanted weapons with them since discovering the rock and even then they argued about which size rock was best.

Too much focus in put on Bigfoot, I mean that elusive drug addict who will not stop at anything. That kind of person is extremely rare and we are talking about a chain of events whose odds keep getting smaller and smaller to the point that they do not deserve our concern. I bet most of you do not even know anyone who used a gun to safe their lives as a civilian. Personally other than in combat, my 2 civilian encounters with bad guys ended abruptly when they saw my gun. They did not ask what caliber it was (both times a .38) and were not willing to risk being shot to see just how much money was in my wallet. That is usually goes and even if you have to shoot, not many criminals will want to hang around and engage into a shootout with you knowing that someone has called the police and they have to get away real quick. The fact that they know that if shot by anything they will have to go to the hospital is a major deterrent.

Some call me stupid or silly for carrying a 5 round snub nose .38 but know what? The odds are overwhelming in my favor and yours that I willnever have to shoot that gun at someone and in the end the great majority of us will be in the same boat. Who is stupid then, the guys who went through life lugging around big and heavy guns (yeah they all say it is no bother but it is) or those of us who choose to live our lives in comfort rather than pretend we are office clerks by day and Rambo on the street with the skill and training to take on multiple armed attackers. That is one of the reasons I hear for carrying a lot of rounds. As if the multiple attackers are going to wait for you to finish shooting the first guy before they shoot at you. One thing I have learned is that most guys have a mental picture of their gun fight. Inevitably it involves them prevailing using their gun of choice despite the fact that 99% receive no training. No one has a mental picture of themselves soiling their pants and being frozen with fear and yet I have seen that happen all too many times, even with tough guys who never came under fire before.

My advice is to stay away from the wrong places and people and use common sense and you will be fine. I lived the first 64 years of my life in bad places and never needed a gun. I carry now because I am older and do not run so fast and seniors are frequent targets in Florida. I actually felt safer in NYC than I do in Florida where the newspapers are full of shooting every day which the local fourms are quick to point out as a reason to carry a 1911 or two. However if you read the articles the people involved are low lives, drug addicts and slum dwellers. You rarely read about upstanding middle class people being victims of violent crime. Sure it happens but so does winning Mega Millions and the odds of you needing a gun are worse than winning that. I am pro gun and like guns can carry them but I am not gun centric and do not carry uncomfortable guns. My gun is like my spare tire only it will probably never been used. Even if you shoot someone in a justified shooting your life will be hell. Heck it took me years to get my head straight coming out of combat. Most of us are not wired to kill people and doing so takes its toll. Then there is the financial cost which will bankrupt most, put stress on the family and even beak them up.

My point is that all this talk on calibers is for very rare instances if you actually have to shoot to physically stop someone and for civilians that is not all that common. Since moving to Florida I have been keeping track fo shooting when they mention calibers and it seems that those with .22's are the majority and do pretty darn good. Have not read about any one shooting someone with their .22 and having them laugh at them or ignoring it. It seems that they all run away. But then again there is Bigfoot the drug addict who will not quit and the reason why guys buy .45's or bigger. Almost the same reason why so many guys I know buy big .464 or .500 guns for bear and have never stepped foot in the woods in their life. I admit that carrying a gun fills a basic need in most men of the warrior class. It empowers me and I do not have to fear those more powerful than I am. I am honest with my reasons for carrying a gun and will not say it is because the world is a real dangerous place in my upscale neighborhood where the worst that has happend since 1980 is a few petty home burglaries of the homes of snow birds. Not one violent crime in all that time and if I am stupid for carrying a snub nose of NAA Pug then what is the guy who carries two pounds or more of gun on his belt daily and will never need it?
GunByte is offline  
Old January 13, 2013, 07:44 AM   #94
therealdeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 627
answering Original Post

Quote:
.22 Mag for self-defense concealed carry
"No."
__________________
NRA Distinguished Life Member

"Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)
therealdeal is offline  
Old January 13, 2013, 09:17 AM   #95
CurlyQ.Howard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2012
Posts: 280
During all the rioting (in Chicago) during the sixties, my father, who worked all over the city, purchased a Hi Standard Sentinel revolver that shot .22 long rifle as its most potent load. He could shoot the eyes out of a snake with it, but never had to use it against anybody. Dad felt it was enough gun for his needs (and this was a guy with the hand, wrist, and arm strength of a blacksmith). During WWII he carried a .45 autoloader as his sidearm, and he said that he practiced as much as he could with it during training, so he was comfortable shooting a .45. Personally, I'd want more gun than a .22 LR or Magnum for a potential life and death situation, but I'm not about to tell anybody what gun to carry; I know that I never questioned my father's choice in a handgun.

Last edited by CurlyQ.Howard; January 13, 2013 at 09:23 AM.
CurlyQ.Howard is offline  
Old January 13, 2013, 02:56 PM   #96
therealdeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 627
GunByte

GunByte,

I thought you might be interested in this thread too since your post mentioned you carry a 38:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511487
__________________
NRA Distinguished Life Member

"Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)
therealdeal is offline  
Reply

Tags
.22 magnum , caliber , handgun , self-defense

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13098 seconds with 9 queries