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Old June 30, 2012, 10:51 PM   #2451
zxcvbob
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I suppose we could call up someone in Justice to...DRAT!
Therein lies our problem.
How about the sheriff of Santa Cruz County, or the State of Arizona?
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Old June 30, 2012, 11:37 PM   #2452
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How about the sheriff of Santa Cruz County, or the State of Arizona?
In the discretion of the DOJ, they could remove it to federal court and "prosecute" it which means dismiss it. That's how they handled it in the wake of Ruby Ridge.

Quote:
In 1997, the District Attorney for Boundary County, Idaho charged Horiuchi with involuntary manslaughter, but the indictment was removed to federal jurisdiction based on the Supremacy Clause and eventually dismissed at the federal prosecutor's request.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_W...Ridge_incident
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Old July 1, 2012, 12:50 AM   #2453
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KyJim, the prosecution of Horiuchi was permitted to proceed. The en banc decision of the 9th Circuit in Idaho v. Horiuchi,98-30149, decided and published on June 5, 2001 was:

Quote:
In keeping with the constitutional allocation of powers between the federal government and the states, federal agents enjoy immunity from state criminal prosecution. That immunity has limits. When an agent acts in an objectively unreasonable manner, those limits are exceeded, and a state may bring a criminal prosecution.

After carefully reviewing the record, we cannot agree with the district court that Agent Horiuchi's use of deadly force against Harris and, by extension, Mrs. Weaver, was objectively reasonable as a matter of law. Accordingly, Agent Horiuchi is not entitled to dismissal on the ground of Supremacy Clause immunity at this stage in the proceeding. On remand, the district court may conduct an evidentiary hearing to determine whether the evidence supports Agent Horiuchi's entitlement to immunity under the legal principles applicable to the use of deadly force. We therefore REVERSE and REMAND with directions that the district court reinstate the criminal complaint and information and for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
The above conclusion was written by Judge Alex Kozinski, the highlights are mine.

What stopped any further action was the dismissal of the case by the Boundary County Prosecutor.

So at least in the 9th Circuit, if the State can prove the actions are objectively unreasonable, the State can prosecute federal agents.
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Old July 1, 2012, 06:11 AM   #2454
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Since I'm not a legal scholar or a lawyer, can the U.S. Attorney in question, be charged with dereliction of duty for failing to prosecute?
I do realize that brings into question who would file those charges and actually prosecute the case. But........
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Old July 2, 2012, 10:57 AM   #2455
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Can the family of Brian Terry bring civil suit gainst DOJ, BATFE, et. al., for thier involvement in the murder? It was thier gun that was found at the murder scene, even if it wasn't the gun that killed him.

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Old July 2, 2012, 11:58 AM   #2456
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Tom Servo quoted my brief comment, and noted post his quote:
That having been said, and regarding "a better one than contempt charges", what of the following: accessory to murder.

I suppose we could call up someone in Justice to...DRAT!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom:

Point taken.
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Old July 2, 2012, 02:28 PM   #2457
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Public Radio, in their On Point segment today, referenced an article in the current Fortune magazine by Katherine Eban, looks/sounded interesting though it might likely be off-putting to some here. Text is found at onpoint.wbur.org, where it can be read or printed out.
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Old July 2, 2012, 05:39 PM   #2458
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KyJim, the prosecution of Horiuchi was permitted to proceed. The en banc decision of the 9th Circuit in Idaho v. Horiuchi,98-30149, decided and published on June 5, 2001 ...
Al, I obviously was not aware of that and it is an important point. Thanks. I just recalled it being eventually dismissed and that's all Wikipedia says about it. Still, it would present another hurdle to a state prosecution and I remain decidedly pessimistic.
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Old July 3, 2012, 12:14 PM   #2459
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Nice concise story on Dennis Burke.

I like this story because it doesn’t hit the reader with the totality of Fast and Furious – just the salient points concerning Dennis Burke:

http://news.investors.com/article/61...nd-furious.htm

1) He is a long-time anti-gunner who worked with major players of the anti-gun movement in the democratic party.

2) He had close communication with Holder's deputy chief of staff.

3) Holder could not have been ignorant about Burke’s e-mail to his own deputy chief of staff thus Holder could not have been ignorant of Fast and Furious and its deadly consequences.

4) Dennis Burke was key in transforming BATFE interdiction efforts into gunwalking operations.

5) Burke’s 2010 comments indicate that the Attorney General and the President were giving direction to Burke.

This story also mentions Jaime Zapata, which I think is important. Jaime Zapata should never be left out of the conversation. Like Brian Terry, he was murdered with weapons that were made available to the cartels as part of a plan to sway public opinion towards more restrictive national gun laws.
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Old July 3, 2012, 01:25 PM   #2460
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Luger_Carbine:


The article you linked noted something about the stench reaching the oval office. It certainly seems to reach further and further, leaving one wondering as to where it might end.
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Old July 3, 2012, 06:50 PM   #2461
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Prior to his appointment as AG for AZ, Burke was a senior aide to Janet Napolitano at Homeland Security. Burke had also worked for Napolitano when she was the federal AG for AZ.

Given Burkes closeness to Napolitano; its a stretch to believe she had no knowledge of Operation F&F.
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Old July 3, 2012, 09:02 PM   #2462
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Ethics complaint filed against Holder with DC Bar by David Codrea.

or

Sipsey Street Exclusive: Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea file ethics complaint on Eric Holder with the D.C. Bar! by Mike Vanderboegh.

I doubt it will go anywhere, but these two started the whole reporting mess, they might as well get what mileage they can out of it!
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Old July 3, 2012, 09:22 PM   #2463
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Quote:
I doubt it will go anywhere
If the US Attorney won't prosecute, and the accused is protected from on high, I'm not optimistic.
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Old July 3, 2012, 09:23 PM   #2464
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Further, it appears your own rules may remove any discretion and require an investigation. As per Rule XI, “Disciplinary Proceedings,” Section 10, “Disciplinary Proceedings Based Upon Conviction of Crime,” at http://www.dcbar.org/inside_the_bar/...les/rule11.cfm
Of course they will roundfile the complaint. They will decide that since Holder hasn't actually been indicted yet (because the US Attorney has a conflict of interest and refuses to prosecute his boss) he hasn't actually been convicted of anything.

The next step should be for the House to impeach Holder for perjury. It'll never happen.

IMHO, the most likely scenario for some kind of justice to prevail is that Zapata or Terry has friends in high places who get sufficiently disgusted with this whole circus that they decide Holder is a national security risk -- and secretly persuade him to do a Vince Foster. I'm not holding my breath for that one either.
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Old July 3, 2012, 10:26 PM   #2465
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Re Al Norris's mention of ethics complaints against Holder being filed with the DC Bar, I too doubt that these complaints will go anywhere, however didn't someone, somewhere mention re such boards that "one can never tell what they might do, given the propwer impetus"?
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Old July 3, 2012, 10:46 PM   #2466
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I'll point out the obvious. Holder has not been convicted of any crime, serious or not. The House vote on contempt is not the equivalent of being convicted of a crime. Holder is not required to report the "crime" to the D.C. Bar as the complaint claims. Now, he might be guilty of ethical violations (dishonesty comes to mind) but I certainly would not expect any action unless or until there was a real criminal conviction or some other admission of culpability.
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Old July 3, 2012, 10:59 PM   #2467
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I decided to go back to the beginning of this thread and review it.

(This is one long and comprehensive history of the proceedings!)

One prescient quote from Morten Rosenberg jumped out at me from the first day of hearings over a year ago:

Quote:
the Department of Justice has the power to string out your investigation, refuse to obey it, and then when it's time for contempt...say all you can do is bring a civil action which will extend and delay your constitutional ability to enforce it.
Chaffetz was on Fox yesterday claiming they've got more witnesses and more evidence, but I'm wondering it this whole thing hasn't just ended with a whimper.
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Old July 4, 2012, 07:25 AM   #2468
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Tom Servo: It appears that you are correct. However, the obviously morally corrupt process of the AG and POTUS may favorably affect the election in our favor. I have high hopes, anyway.
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Old July 4, 2012, 08:18 AM   #2469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KYJim
I'll point out the obvious. Holder has not been convicted of any crime, serious or not. The House vote on contempt is not the equivalent of being convicted of a crime. Holder is not required to report the "crime" to the D.C. Bar as the complaint claims.
Congress held a couple of votes and held him in civil contempt and in criminal contempt.

I don't know if that matters.
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Old July 4, 2012, 02:03 PM   #2470
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Push coming to shove, I expect that DOJ/Obama et al will shuck and jive their way through this executive privilege, congressional citations business.

That having been said, how it all will effect the elections is anyone's guess. One can of course hope but that's about all the individual can do. As to how good, bad or indifferent Romney, if elected, will be for Second Amendment Rights and other things, that is perhaps the proverbial million dollar question.
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Old July 4, 2012, 04:58 PM   #2471
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I'm not so willing to call this as being over just yet as I have a sneaking suspicion that Issa has "cards yet to play" if you will. As a casual observer, this is what I could see happening: Issa and the Republicans have kept this simmering for over a year now and are slowly turning up the heat. It has been claimed several times that there are more witnesses and evidence that has not yet been brought to bear. I would not be surprised in the least if the most damning evidence was brought to bear closer to the election as an "October Surprise" in an attempt to hurt the President's re-election bid.

Now, some will view this as a petty and despicable practice because it reduces genuine tragedy and crime into nothing more that partisan politics. If that were the only reason for the scandal being brought to light, I would agree but there may actually be a very good reason to use it as political ammunition against President Obama. I think we can all agree that if Holder were prosecuted and convicted of anything today, he would likely receive a Presidential pardon after the election when President Obama no longer has to worry about getting re-elected. However, if the Republicans can damage President Obama enough politically to cause him to lose the election and then wait until after Romney is inaugurated to prosecute Holder, justice would be more likely to prevail since Holder would no longer have so many friends in high places.
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Old July 4, 2012, 06:47 PM   #2472
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A Presidential Pardon can be given even before any charges are brought.
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Old July 5, 2012, 11:25 PM   #2473
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If enough dots can be connected a documentary exposing F+F as a mechanism designed to cause death in Mexico ,with little or no regard for the lives of the Mexican people can be produced.
Lets not forget Mexico was not informed of F+F.
Maybe prosecution is not possible,but infamy is.
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Old July 6, 2012, 04:07 AM   #2474
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Nothing effective may be done until the White House has a different party in power. It has been proven that the DOJ has lied to Congress and the American People about this operation. if Obama loses the election you can bet the shredders will be running 24/7 at the DOJ.
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Old July 6, 2012, 08:51 AM   #2475
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I think I've mentioned this before. Mexico could issue international arrest warrants through Interpol.
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