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Old June 24, 2012, 04:43 PM   #1
saands
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Warning on Outlaw State Expanding Subsonics for 300BLK

I just wanted to let people know that the 220 gr bullets from Outlaw State that are designed to expand at subsonic 300BLK velocities have a slight ridge at the base that is a 0.0003" to 0.0004" larger in diameter than the shank of the bullet. It seems as this isn't an issue with brass that is converted from 5.56x45 to 300BLK and not annealed, but if you use these bullets with new Remington 300BLK brass the bullets end up with almost no neck tension after the larger base gets inserted into the case. When I communicated this to Outlaw State, their response was essentially, "your brass has been annealed too much, they work fine when we test them in our converted 5.56 cases."

Converted 556 may have been the standard when that was all that was available, but it seems to me that now that the 300BLK has been recognized by SAAMI (and Remington), the new manufacture Remington brass I had is the more standard stuff (not converted 556). The fact of the matter is that the bullets have a ridge at the base, which I have never seen in any name brand bullet. And for $120 per bag of 100 bullets, I was less than impressed with their attitude.

Anyway, I just wanted y'all to know that if you want to use these projectiles for subsonic applications, you need to plan on using converted brass in these loads.

I haven't shot these for groups yet (or tested it on game), as I just got my brass converted. Hopefully they are worth the extra effort and cost to use.

Hope this helps,

Saands

ps ... the defect on the bullets was also on the identically shaped (but non-expanding) practice bullets that they offer.
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Old June 24, 2012, 06:29 PM   #2
FrankenMauser
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Have you checked neck wall thickness, to see if there's a bigger difference between the cases than just the amount they've been annealed?

With cartridges that are based on something else, Remington has a REALLY bad habit of taking shortcuts, and creating neck walls of the wrong thickness. One of the effects of that is often reduced neck tension. (Due to thin walls, or walls so thick they crack when sized.)


So... you're saying there's a .311-.312" ridge at the base of the bullet, but the bearing surface still measures the proper .308"?
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Old June 24, 2012, 06:38 PM   #3
mrawesome22
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I cannot imagine 3 to 4 ten thousands of an inch making any difference in neck tension whatsoever.

Measure inside neck diameter of a sized case.

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Old June 24, 2012, 07:03 PM   #4
saands
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FrankenMauser: No ... I was saying that there is a 0.0004 ridge ... my micrometer measurements gave me a base average of 0.3081" and a shank average of 0.3077" ... by the way, the Remington brass doesn't have any trouble holding onto the SMK, V-MAX, or A-MAX bullets I use that don't have the ridge.

MrAwesome22: That was OS's first comment as well. The neck diameter is a little larger as the brass on the Remington is a little thinner. But even the Remington brass is a minimum of 0.003" under caliber.

I would agree with your expectation that 0.0004" shouldn't matter, but it looks like brass doesn't spring back like steel does, so once you pass the larger diameter through it, a few tenths DOES make a difference ... at least in annealed brass. I did a lot of troubleshooting on these, including FL resizing WITHOUT the expander mandrel installed ... which would have given an extra couple of whole thousandths of an inch of initial neck tension. That didn't help at all. After seating the bullets, you could literally pull them out of the case with just your thumb and index finger.

Like I said, this is mostly a warning to those who might want to use these bullets ... so they don't waste as much time I did trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. Match your brass with your bullets ...

There very well may be an issue with the Remington brass being over-annealed, but it is what is commercially available, hence my warning. Also, from my experience, it works fine with uniformly sized projectiles like the Sierra and Hornady offerings.

Saands
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Old June 24, 2012, 07:16 PM   #5
oneounceload
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You can measure 4 ten thousandths of an inch consistently? WOW............good for you

Considering that is within tolerances for most makers................
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Old June 24, 2012, 07:33 PM   #6
saands
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Can I? You be the judge, here's the data.



I'd argue that, with a micrometer in hand (and not a caliper or a ruler) anyone should be able to ... after all, micrometers typically give you 0.0001" or 0.00005" resolution. Then, if you take multiple readings on each sample (I took 6 readings on each of 9 bullets) any noise that might be in the measurement system goes down.

By the way, while it may be true that the 0.0004" is within the tolerances for most makers, that tolerance is probably lot to lot variation ... and for the sloppy ones it might be bullet to bullet variation, but I have NEVER seed that kind of variation within a single bullet.
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Old June 24, 2012, 07:33 PM   #7
mrawesome22
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Odd. Any chance the seater plug is clashing with the tip profile of this bullet and starting them sideways?

Can you seat just deep enough, so as the ridge does not enter the neck? If so, do you get decent tension?

Hmm.... how bout seating one upside down but don't let the ridge enter.....

Just thinking out loud now.

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Old June 24, 2012, 07:36 PM   #8
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Another thought, maybe take some heavy steel and try and roll out the ridge?

May not be worth the effort. Guess that would depend on how much $120 means to ya.

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Old June 24, 2012, 07:41 PM   #9
saands
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Seating one upside down would have been a good idea ... I didn't think of that when I was worried about my equipment being the issue. You can't seat them at all without the ridge entering, because the ridge is the first thing in

Like I said previously, I can seat a SMK without any issues whatsoever and those are at most 0.0002" larger in diameter. I'm pretty convinced that the ridge is the contributing factor ... I have no way of knowing if the brass may be over-annealed, but it works fine with the others.

Given my success with the other bullets and with the OS bullets using the NATO brass, I don't think that there are any equipment issues here.

All I'm trying to do is give people the benefit of my troubleshooting in case they want to do the same kind of loads. I loaded up a bunch of these last night with 5.56 based brass and they hold just fine. I really am sorry if I upset people's sensitivities by bringing data to the game

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Old June 24, 2012, 08:46 PM   #10
mrawesome22
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Maybe Remington makes the necks soft to ensure sealing of the chamber with the light pressure the round generates.

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Old June 24, 2012, 09:03 PM   #11
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Berger bullets have a pressure ring on the 243/6mm bullets i use. Its different from lot to lot. From .0004" to .0008" larger than the main bullet bearing surface diameter of .243" Does not effect neck tension, using bushing dies, no expander. If your .308" bullets are undersize, as it seems they are, it may be a problem for accuracy, but expanders in the FL sizing die are at least .0015" or more smaller than bullet diameter. Add a little springback of the brass, and neck tension should be fine. Brass with thin neck walls or a FL die not sizing small enough, would seem to be the main problem.
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Old June 24, 2012, 09:15 PM   #12
mrawesome22
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^^^^ Didn't read all the posts

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Old June 24, 2012, 09:27 PM   #13
243winxb
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Quote:
I did a lot of troubleshooting on these, including FL resizing WITHOUT the expander mandrel installed ...
Like i said, a die problem. An NO, i didnt, just enough.
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Old June 24, 2012, 09:43 PM   #14
mrawesome22
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Exactly. He was getting .003" tension WITH the expander. Removing it will induce even more tension.

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Old June 25, 2012, 04:55 AM   #15
FrankenMauser
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Ah, I misread the original figures (0.0003-0.0004").

But... I agree with everyone else. A ridge of 0.0004" isn't going to make a difference in decent brass. Something else is causing the problem. In my opinion... the brass is bad (as OS stated), there's a die problem, or there's a variable you're missing in your reloading process.

Are the bullets seating crooked, catching case mouths, or out-of-round?
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Old June 25, 2012, 10:33 AM   #16
saands
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243winxb: The note on that pressure ring is very interesting. In the 300BLK, the ridge I'm talking about (which sounds just like the ring you are mentioning) actually ends up below (seated deeper than) the neck of the case. I know that many Berger bullets are also long for caliber, is this the same with your 243/6mm application?

As I said above, Remington may very well be over-annealing their brass ... and it may not work with any bullets that have a pressure ring at the base.

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Old June 25, 2012, 02:55 PM   #17
243winxb
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Pressure Ring

Saands, the pressure ring on Bergers are on the base of the bullet. Its the first area to make contact with the case mouth on seating. The flat base bullet is .0008" The boatail is .0003" The VLD is .0004" Some more than others. I checked some 224 dia. match bullets made by Sierra & Hornady, no pressure ring. Never seen a pressure ring till i bought Bergers. If loading with bushing dies or Lee collet that gives only .001" neck tension it may be a problem, depending on the hardness of the brass. Standard dies that i have measured, size the neck down way more than needed. Then the expander opens the inside of the neck to the correct diameter. Expander diameters run any where from .0015 to .004" smaller than bullet diameters, giving lots of neck tension. I am no expert. Unclenick is, maybe we should ask him?
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Old June 25, 2012, 06:14 PM   #18
Jimro
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Well, if the bullets perform absolutely wonderfully on animals, maybe you should get one of these to get rid of the ridge before loading. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/235...t-308-diameter

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