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Old June 19, 2012, 08:28 PM   #26
moxie
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Striker,

Are you referring to primer crimp, or bullet crimp?

I assume bullet crimp in this context. The very minimal amount of case mouth crimp on GI 5.56 is simply to enhance, to the maximum amount possible, feeding reliability. The case mouth is not really rolled into the cannelure as you might expect. Pull a bullet on a M-193 or 855 and you will see it is not deformed from crimping at all.

Mil-spec mandates lots of other stuff not really needed, but that "gild the lily" in combat environments. For example, mil-spec ammo usually also has case mouth sealant in addition to the moderate crimping, annealing of the shoulder and neck area to enhance tension without splitting, and primer sealing and crimping.

The fact that military 5.56 is minimally crimped does not negate my CONTENTION that the major factor in bullet RETENTION is case neck TENSION. Very few .223 bullets even have cannelures.
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Old June 19, 2012, 08:50 PM   #27
steve4102
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Lee Factory Accuracy Test. Done by the guys over at Accurate Reloading, not Slamfire.

Note the huge decrease in accuracy?

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
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Old June 19, 2012, 09:11 PM   #28
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Anyone who thinks they can improve on the accuracy of a rifle bullet by swaging its core is smoking a non-over the counter product. Unless you are in California, then it is an over the counter product.

The Lee FCD will deform a bullet core and it will deform the bullet sidewalls with very little effort.

After you set up your LFCD, following the directions, knock some of your bullets out and see if you have “coke bottled” your bullets.
Its only a matter of time on any thread about FCD's before that pic is posted, I was actualy surprised it took so long....

And of course, as you have been told numerous times, those bullets are an example of a grossly maladjusted crimp die. I actualy have a hard time believing a lee FCD could do that even if you tried, but thats not the discussion here.

Quote:
Well I say so, and so does every Nationally Ranked competitor I asked about crimping rifle bullets. Jacketed match rifle bullets that is. They don't do it. I don't do it, good shooters don't do it.
We have the best, most concentric, best balanced bullets ever in human history and someone thinks they can improve on them by swaging them in the middle?
I guess those of us shooting expensive jacketed match bullets out of $3000 custom rifles can skip the FCD then....
The rest of us NOT using match bullets on the other hand, have found the FCD quite useful.
I do take exception to the part in bold above, as its an absolute lie. I lie broght on my prejudice and misinformation, but a lie just the same. Lots of good shooters use the FCD's. Lots of people are BETTER shooters BECAUSE they use a FCD.

Quote:
For those who do crimp with the FCD, pull some crimped bullets and see if they are swaged. You follow the factory directions and you crimp match bullets, they will be swaged in the middle. But you won't know it till you pull them.
I have pulled plenty of my bullets, .308 win and 30-30, and other than normal scratches from inserting it into the case, they look brand new, not swagged. They shoot great too. Of course I am not using (apparently super fragile?) match bullets, just everyday hornady SST's and various brands of jacketed soft and hollow points...... I guess when I decide to join the benchrest crowd I will stop using my FCD's, but until then of course I will do what actualy helps me shoot better, rather than decide not to do it just because everyone else doesnt do it....


And of course, its a pretty indisputable fact that the vast majority of people who use the factory crimp die see an improvement,

Its also pretty obvious that the vast majority of people who bash the factory crimp die have either never used one, or were so terrible at reading and following the directions that they smashed the crap out of their bullets and swore it off forever...
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Old June 19, 2012, 09:15 PM   #29
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steve4102 Lee Factory Accuracy Test. Done by the guys over at Accurate Reloading, not Slamfire.

Note the huge decrease in accuracy?

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
Bah, 100 yard results, if that. I looked at the page and could not find the distance, I assume 100 yards, might have been 25 yard groups.

What you see is the randomness due to low sample size. Five shot groups, bah.

When you are shooting for record it is 20 shot groups in 22 minutes.

When that gentleman, and all those crimp fans, pick up their awards for winning Long Range events at the National Matches, and claim it is all due to swaging their bullets, then I will believe there is something to it.

Camp Perry next month. One of my non crimping Champion Friends is shooting on an invitational Long Range team. Maybe the crimp fans will have the gonads to compete and show the big dogs that the big dogs don't know nothing about reloading or shooting.

The world is quivering in anticipation.....
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Old June 19, 2012, 09:44 PM   #30
steve4102
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What you see is the randomness due to low sample size. Five shot groups, bah.
Again we see the inability of Slamfire to read. He is unable to read the simple instruction that come with the Lee Factory Crimp Die as he is unable to read the sample test from the link above.

The test was not "low sample size, five shot groups". It was 50 rounds per rifle for a total of 150 rounds. 75 rounds with the LFCD and 75 without.
As the author pointed out his test was certainly not a scientific experiment but damn interesting.
Even if it was only 25 yards, it still shows that the LFCD used "Properly" not the Slamfire way, can indeed improve accuracy.

Read man read, it will actually help you comprehend, no lie, it does work.
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Old June 20, 2012, 06:35 AM   #31
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I'll post my results

My Lee dies and FCD are in transit so by the weekend I should have all the brass FL sized and ran thru all of the normal new brass prep. I only load for 3 shot groups (3 shots determines the load/rifle, 5 shots determines the shooter) and I usually spread out the loads over 6 different powder charges. Maybe I'll FCD every other load range to see if a pattern exists. I'm not interested justifying the crimp to anyone but really just for myself.
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:30 AM   #32
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The Lee crimper produced a "huge" decrease in accuracy? The writer says he got an average group increase of 10% BUT his velocity spreads were reduced. Seems like it's time fo him to redo some seating tests to see if the groups can't be tweaked down.

I would also note he said:

"I tried to put a reasonably heavy crimp on, although none of the bullets had a crimp groove."

That sounds nice but, technically, it has virtually no meaning; which three of us would agree on what amounts to "a reasonalbly heavy crimp"? The most common user error using Lee's adjustable rifle crimp die is excessive crimps that damage the bullets but that's the user's failure, not the die's.

Bottom line, I don't think the interesting and well intended crimp test cited 'proves' anything with any certainty.

IMHO, if anyone wants to know what any degree of crimp, or crimp die, can do for his ammo with his loading skills needs to test it.
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:43 AM   #33
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Permit me to clarify, unemotionally, my position regarding the use of the FCD for crimping .223s for ARs. I never noticed a difference in accuracy, one-way-or-the-other, because I never did any serious testing of crimped vs. non-crimped rounds. I do know that my bolt rifles do better with non-crimped rounds.

I quit crimping my AR ammo, due to my belief that such crimping was superfluous.
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Old June 20, 2012, 10:01 AM   #34
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Anyone who thinks they can improve on the accuracy of a rifle bullet by swaging its core is smoking a non-over the counter product.
I don’t smoke, drink nor chew, and I have proven, with various loads in a .223, that the Lee Factory Crimp Die gives me at the minimum a 10% increase in accuracy. At times greater then 10%. Not quite that, but close in a 7mmSTW.

I use the LFCD in all of my reloads. 9mm, .45acp, .223/5.56, 7mmSTW.
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Old June 20, 2012, 10:36 AM   #35
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Again we see the inability of Slamfire to read. He is unable to read the simple instruction that come with the Lee Factory Crimp Die as he is unable to read the sample test from the link above.

The test was not "low sample size, five shot groups". It was 50 rounds per rifle for a total of 150 rounds. 75 rounds with the LFCD and 75 without
From the referenced article:

Quote:
I fired all of the them as 5 shot groups, over an OEHLER Model 43 PBL
Lets see, now just where did I get the five shot groups wrong? Was it in the “I fired all of the them as 5 shot groups”, or was it at “I fired all of the them as 5 shot groups”?

Quote:
As for these guys that continue to puke out what the Bench Rest crowd does, ignore them as well. The BR guys do not crimp, so what, they don't shoot off the shelf rifles like you or I either, they also use several loading techniques that you and I wouldn't dream of in an off the shelf hunting/sporting rifle. Things like indexing every round, pig jamming the bullet so far into the lands that if extracted without firing the pullet will be pulled from the case, Having chambers so tight that neck sizing isn't required etc.etc. You know, things that do what the Lee Factory Crimp die does.
I am an across the course shooter and a sometimes long range shooter. I seldom follow bench rest techniques because they are controlling variables are that within my hold. My friends and I have to have accurate reliable ammunition. “Pig jamming” a bullet into the lands is something that I don’t do for example, though one of the very best shooters ever, Mid Thompkins, “soft seats” his long range bullets into the lands.

Quote:
The rest of us NOT using match bullets on the other hand, have found the FCD quite useful.
Quote:
I do take exception to the part in bold above, as its an absolute lie. I lie broght on my prejudice and misinformation, but a lie just the same. Lots of good shooters use the FCD's. Lots of people are BETTER shooters BECAUSE they use a FCD.

but until then of course I will do what actualy helps me shoot better, rather than decide not to do it just because everyone else doesnt do it....
Let us examine this.

Crappy bullets and crappy rifles are crappy for a number of good physical reasons. Crappy bullets have uneven jackets, the jackets will be thick on one side, uneven taper. Core weight will vary, be unevenly distributed. All of these things effect the center of balance and center of gravity resulting in inconsistent oscillations. Good bullets are very uniform because uniformity produces best accuracy. Crappy bullets will be very different from bullet to bullet.

And yet, someone is claiming they can take crappy bullets and improve on them with a crimp die. How does a crimp die improve jacket concentricity, weight distribution, core distribution, what magical transformative powers does a crimp die have on correcting bullet defects?

Obviously, in this physical universe, a crimp die will do nothing to improve a bullet after it is made.

And yet you have claims, strongly held, that a crimp die makes them better. How can that be?

I believe this is due to a variation of the placebo effect.

The placebo effect is a very interesting phenomena, and it is real, in the sense that the impressionable are effected by it. You can listen to several programs on it if you search the web. The placebo effect goes back to ancient medicine. I listened to this radio program on the placebo effect and found it interesting: http://www.radiolab.org/2007/may/17/

Basically for this to work the impressionable individual has to believe the authority figure, a Doctor, a Corporation, for example, and believe that the treatment works.

When in fact, all the medical patients are being given is a sugar pill. But the impressionable do show results and become true believers, until that cancer finally kills them. But that is later, and they are not too vocal about that.

So, impressionable shooters believe the Corporate message, that this magical device will improve their shooting. You have to remember corporations are amoral entities that only exist to maximize profits. They have no guilt, no shame, and are highly manipulative. All they want is your money, and if the weak minded fork over their money for a sham, well, that’s profit now.

Now the thing about the delusional, they only see what they want to see: their results are edited through the delusion prism in their heads.

But when it comes to the acid test of reality, the crimp die shooters are not the winners and not the national champs.

But that does not change their preception of the world, nor how they think it works.
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Old June 20, 2012, 05:30 PM   #36
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Guess what, so what, dreaded drive in, or bullet bonking out, my match AR’s shoot sub MOA regardless.
I can shoot sub MOA with a stock AR using Hornady bulk bullets and the FCD. Doesn't sound like much of an improvement upgrading to a match AR and match components.
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Old June 20, 2012, 05:41 PM   #37
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Lets see, now just where did I get the five shot groups wrong? Was it in the “I fired all of the them as 5 shot groups”, or was it at “I fired all of the them as 5 shot groups”?
Reading is "Fundamental". The test was actually 30 five shot groups. How many five shot groups did you use when you tested your over-crimped damaged bullets, more than 30?
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Old June 20, 2012, 06:32 PM   #38
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Ah slamfire, whats it like up there so far above us all? All I can see is nose hair....

I guess if you want to believe that anyone who is using a FCD is a crappy shooter shooting crappy bullets with crappy rifles, thats up to you.

I on the other hand, will happily continue to to use my FCD. If I am delusional because I am happy with the .5-.75" groups I get out of my budget hunting rifle, then so be it. But knowing thats something that many rifles that cost 2-3 times as much even using match bullets cannot do still brings a smile to my face. Low cost does not equal crappy my friend, When you learn that, your will life a much happier life, due to all the extra money in your pockets.

I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. All I can do is post my personal observations based on personal experience. If "some" people just want to post hearsay and the like, thats up to them, but most people can see through it.

Just because people who win national matches do or do not do something, doesnt mean its a good idea for everyone else to do nor not do. Walk down the line at a national match and what you WONT see is identical equipment and methods. Trying to convince people that those who dont do the same thing as match winning shooters are somehow delusional is an odd tactic.... Stock car drivers change their oil every 500 miles, and all us poor suckers who change ours ever 3-5K must be delusional. NO ONE who wins car races would ever DREAM of going 3000 miles between oil changes!!! Thats completly different you say? Not really. Just as your average car driver isnt trying to win a stock car race, most of us arent trying to win matches here, we are just trying to get the most performance out of what we got.
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Old June 22, 2012, 11:56 AM   #39
zeke
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With the exception of some pistol calibers where a Redding profile crimp is used, every single round i load for rifle or pistol gets a a LFC. Sometimes it is so light to be barely perceptible, but insures any belling, twinge from the seating step or rough edge of the case mouth gets straightened out. Sometimes it is for a 45-70 or similiar situations and hard crimped into the cannelure.

Yes i have crimped a 257 wby hard enough to lower ES to low single digits and produce it's own cannelure. Accuracy was dismal.

If you want to increase the case neck tension on a 223, you can use a bullet with a cannelure and crimp into it , or simply remove the expander plug from your sizing die, use a boat tail bullet and Redding comp seater. You can also use a smaller caliber belling die from lyman, and stndard seating die.

If you are a cast bullet shooter reloading for a pstol and are specifically using slightly over diameter lead bullets, the bullets may get swaged down.

Sometimes it seems like a waisted effort to read or post on this subject so often.

And just to blow another , i know what i am doing i have posted 5000 times Internet BS law into oblivion, Win factory 9mm fmj 115 grainers (Q4172) is crimped hard enough to produce a cannelure and is the most accurate 115 gmj factory i ever tried (although there are more i haven't tried, than those i have tried) If memory holds Win 230 fmj are also crimped this hard.

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Old June 22, 2012, 12:34 PM   #40
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Doesn't lightly crimping on a non-cannelured bullet, as with a Lee FCD, just create the equivalent of a cannelure, as long as you don't overdo it? Is it different, better or worse, than using a cannelure tool on a non-cannelured bullet and then crimping into the cannelure? Educate me.
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Old June 23, 2012, 08:58 AM   #41
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9mmm!!! .45!!!! Glock!!!! 1911!!!!! Sorry couldn't resist.

Anyway, on the crimp. I like the FCD for my 9 and 45 loads because I had some issues with bullet setback early on in my reloading experience. Granted, it was exacerbated by poor neck tension due to inexperience. But I KNOW I won't have it again using the FCD. Especially shooting IDPA, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, where I will chamber at least some rounds more than once. Maybe I'd feel different if I were shooting bullseye.

As to the rifle, I also shoot cross course competition. I'm certainly in no danger of taking any titles, but I do talk to some guys that are. I haven't found any that use a crimp die. I shoot my reloads, both for single round loading and from the magazine, without a crimp. Haven't found it to be an issue.

Speaking of Perry in a month, looking forward to it. I'll be there for CMP week. I'm sure some of us will run into each other, but then..... how would we know?
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Old June 23, 2012, 10:54 PM   #42
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people sure get their panties in a bunch over a simple question. Crimp or not to crimp that is the question. Crimping is a lot like religion, it all depends on what you believe in.
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Old June 24, 2012, 10:56 AM   #43
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I on the other hand, will happily continue to to use my FCD. If I am delusional because I am happy with the .5-.75" groups I get out of my budget hunting rifle, then so be it.

Low cost does not equal crappy my friend, When you learn that, your will life a much happier life, due to all the extra money in your pockets.
I agree, I shot this yesterday in a small bore prone match with Wolf Target Match. At $4.50 cents a box it is a positive bargain. This is the prettiest 50 MR yard target I have ever shot, of course we all have shot 50-5X’s before, but these were all in the middle. And I am going to claim that all my groups look like this, and these rounds were crimped. Oops!



The match winner shot RWS rifle match (at $7.50 a box) and did very darn well with an 1194.81 in 90 F. It was hot! I shot Eley at 100 yards, ($12.50 a box) maybe I should have stuck with the cheap stuff.


Getting half MOA groups, that is pretty good, I would be very happy with those.

Quote:
Walk down the line at a national match and what you WONT see is identical equipment and methods.
Well don’t confuse me as the Galactic standard. I am just like everyone else, I follow the herd. I do not have the hubris of someone like Johannes Kepler, who is the Galactic standard for marksmanship. Johannes Kepler’s Long Range team won the Sharpshooter Class one year at Camp Perry. Kudo’s to them for showing up. But, as there were only two teams in SS class, the worst they could have done was #2. Sharpshooter class is not as competitive as Master Class or worse, High Master. The team that wins High Master class are the big dogs, sometimes four National Champions on one team.

Nether the less, Johannes Kepler felt qualified, as winner in Sharpshooter Class, to be the self proclaimed Galactic standard of marksmanship, and to disparage CCI primers. He hates them, can’t shoot straight with them, CCI primers: bad, bad, bad.

Not me, I am not the Galactic Standard. But as one who surely has shot at Camp Perry, pulled with the best, did you not ever ask the Big Dogs, “do you crimp?”. I asked till it was pointless, no one, no one at the Master Class or HM class level crimps. Everyone will share their loading data. Except one National Champ I know, her husband loads everything for her, so I ask Hubby. Everyone will share everything they do, gun data, load data, because it does not matter. You could use their load and their data and you still won’t beat them. At their level, it is not about equipment, it is about skill and judgment and maturity.

As to equipment and methods, surely you have been shooting long enough to see, like me, that when it comes to equipment, the wannbees are all herd animals, all following the leaders. I have been in this long enough to see the transition from M1a’s to AR15’s, the disappearance of the classic bolt gun. Used to be all the serious match rifle shooters used M700’s or M70’s. Of course there were outliers, but the 90%, 95%, follow the leaders. That changed with the Tubb Rifle and the Space Gun. Within a two to three year period following the introduction of the Tubb Rifle I walked down Viale range and only saw two classic bolt guns on the line. There were 8 to 9 Space guns per Tubb rifle. The change over was quick.

David Tubb was/is an experimenter. He would win with this cartridge, next year, that was the hot cartridge. He would sleeve his bolt action, next year, you would see sleeved guns. It got so bad my bud’s used to make jokes about, “if David Tubb peed down his barrel before a match, most of the firing line would have their pants about their feet during reveille.”. I believe it.

But you know, no one crimps their bullets. For all the diversity in commonality on the firing line, no on crimps their bullets.

And as a herd follower, I am just imitating the big dogs.

But there is a way to change this, and that is to win. For all those crimpers, just win. Get up on the stage, hold your Lee Crimp Die high, and all the wannabees will follow your example.

Just win one for the Crimper.
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Old June 24, 2012, 10:59 AM   #44
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Old June 24, 2012, 01:18 PM   #45
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steve4102, I joined accuratereloading.com March 2001 and there was always question about that crimping test. I voice my concerns on AR and I'm not saying the test was set up and this was my reason. The Rem 40x is a custom order rifle and they furnish two test target 5shot groups each target with loads. My 223 40X two test target groups average in the mid to high .2's with Berger 52gr match bullet uncoated/uncrimped.

We all know loads are normally worked up and you get an accuracy load and their was no mention how he came up with these loads used in the test.

When I was shooting BR if I could lower the average on my 5 targets 5 shot groups to win a match crimping I would of done it. Lot of things were tried some worked others didn't.

Because I don't crimp for bolt action rifles doesn't mean it wouldn't work. I've been using bushing die about 30yrs or so and I can adjust neck tension so that it screw up my accuracy pretty bad. I've tried lot of things over the years and when I make a change it's has to be an improvement in accuracy, if what I change stays the same I may use that at some future date on something else but i won't my load.

I don't see any problem with someone crimping if they get the accuracy they want.
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Old June 24, 2012, 01:57 PM   #46
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But you know, no one crimps their bullets. For all the diversity in commonality on the firing line, no on crimps their bullets.
Yea, and I bet no one uses hornady SST's either, or hunting rifles. We are talking apples and orange here. A performance cam that wouldn't do diddly squat in a race car is sure going to be a pick me up in your average sedan....

Quote:
You could use their load and their data and you still won’t beat them. At their level, it is not about equipment, it is about skill and judgment and maturity.
Agreed. If what I am doing is working great for me, they why SHOULD I follow the big dogs?

Its been said many times, that crimping is just a crutch for poor loading technique....

Well, If person A is meticulous in their loading, and gets sub MOA groups without a FCD, While person B has a poor loading technique (not sure what that means, since none of the people who have told me that have ever seen me load or shoot) and gets the same groups WITH a crimp die, I dont really see the problem people have with FCD's. If something makes it easier to get great groups, then why NOT use it?

I will take your word for it that no one uses a crimp die in the competitions you are talking about slamfire. Thats fine. However, I dont get how you can just assume that thats going to translate to EVERYONE..... How exactly does someone at the highest levels of competition, using the best of everything, translate down to me, with a lee turret press and a hunting rifle?


We are talking two totaly different beasts here. You are saying "none of the top racers use this type of performance cam on their souped up race cars, because it doesnt help" We are saying "well, we dont have race cars, and we have seen with our own eyes that it DOES help in OUR cars." To which you reply " you are too dumb to realize that it doesnt actualy help, its really a placebo effect"..... Now how exactly does one respond to an answer like that?


Could most of us who use a FCD get the same groups with a lot more effort and better equipment, bullets, and guns? Apparently so, but the question is WHY? When I am perfectly happy with the groups I get using a FCD, why should I spend a whole lot of time and money, just to end up with those same groups without using a FCD? Sounds silly, right?


I can watch a champion speller win a spelling bee without the use of spell check. If I want to write a letter, I can either spend lots and lots of time learning to spell every word I want to write, or I can use spell check. The results are the same, so why bother? (barring a few grammatical errors, but we are talking about spelling, not grammar, just like having well made ammo doesnt make you a good shot, knowing how to spell doesnt mean you know to use know rather than no...)

Of course, you could say thats taking the "easy way". Well, go ahead, assuming you dont take the easy way to work (drive/ride), dont take the easy way to prepare meals (microwave/stove), dont take the easy way to procure guns (buy it)... etc etc etc.... we should all me walking to work, cooking over a fire, and forging our own guns with ore we dig out of the ground, right?
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Old June 24, 2012, 03:21 PM   #47
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When I am perfectly happy with the groups I get using a FCD, why should I spend a whole lot of time and money, just to end up with those same groups without using a FCD? Sounds silly, right?
My F Class National Champ bud actually weighs his loaded rounds. Am I going to do that? No!

Nothing you have said sounds silly. But I am not a believer in crimp dies for target rifles.

Quote:
I don't see any problem with someone crimping if they get the accuracy they want.
To date, that's probably the best advice.
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Old June 24, 2012, 03:48 PM   #48
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Quote:
why should I spend a whole lot of time and money, just to end up with those same groups without using a FCD? Sounds silly, right?
You actually have a point, but are defending your position too much and come across a little like a kid who doesn't want to take the training wheels of your bike. Or you can drive an automatic transmission, yet refuse to learn to drive a stick.

You seem to imply that because you have acceptable results with the loading techniques that you use, that other more meticulous people are somehow wrong because they're willing to put more time and effort into their load process. This is where you lose it by defending the easy way.

Do you really think that your ammo is as good as the meticulous ones? It very well may be good enough for your needs, but that doesn't make it as good as theirs. These guys put good instruction down and not just flexing their ego. They should not be P'shawd with my ammos as good as yours and I use the easiest way I can, and the cheapest equipment.

You're all full of blanket statements like that, that have nothing but ego holding them up. We know you can load some pert darn good ammo, but to imply that it could measure up to another mans, who is willing to cover all the bases and load the long way is...(ego).

Don't let ego get in the way of learning.
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Old June 24, 2012, 04:26 PM   #49
jaguarxk120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,928
I have a question, how long has this company been making this fcd???
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Old June 24, 2012, 05:32 PM   #50
dacaur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2010
Posts: 733
Quote:
You actually have a point, but are defending your position too much and come across a little like a kid who doesn't want to take the training wheels of your bike. Or you can drive an automatic transmission, yet refuse to learn to drive a stick.

You seem to imply that because you have acceptable results with the loading techniques that you use, that other more meticulous people are somehow wrong because they're willing to put more time and effort into their load process. This is where you lose it by defending the easy way.

Do you really think that your ammo is as good as the meticulous ones? It very well may be good enough for your needs, but that doesn't make it as good as theirs. These guys put good instruction down and not just flexing their ego. They should not be P'shawd with my ammos as good as yours and I use the easiest way I can, and the cheapest equipment.

You're all full of blanket statements like that, that have nothing but ego holding them up. We know you can load some pert darn good ammo, but to imply that it could measure up to another mans, who is willing to cover all the bases and load the long way is...(ego).

Don't let ego get in the way of learning.
I never meant to imply that my loaded ammo is super great, or as good as people who are the top levels of competition. Only that, with MY skills, a FCD makes better ammo than I can make without it. If I had the skills and equipment to make ammo that shoots as well without a FCD as what my current skills and equipment make with a FCD, then I wouldn't worry about it. As it is, it shoots better than anything I have been able to buy, but thats because its tailored for my rifle.

My point is simply that for most people a FCD will help, or at least wont hurt.
Slamfires point is that a FCD WILL hurt performance in all cases.

I guess we can all make up our own minds, I just want to make sure that people reading in the future have enough info to be able to do that...
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