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Old May 6, 2012, 06:58 PM   #76
FireForged
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IMO, dealing with a SD issue by myself...A flashlight has no place on my weapon. I am fortunate that the street lights give off enough that I can see throughout my house "good enough" with just cracked blindes. If I have to use a flashlight I use fenix TA20 led on it lowest setting (for spot on identification)

I do have one of those clear baseball sized LED glowballs. I can roll it into a room and it gives off plenty of light to see anyone in there.
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:13 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged
A flashlight has no place on my weapon

One of the features of a weapon mounted light, is that it can be left in the off position. The mere fact that its mounted doesn't necessitate its use. Yet it remains ready to go at a touch.

I think lights are really useful additions. I don't have one on a pistol right now, but I have one mounted on my HD shotgun. Its not in the way and is very useful, if I need it. Like I said earlier, its mere presence, does not mean it has to be used, but its there.
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:16 PM   #78
Frank Ettin
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Even though there is a fair amount of ambient light from outside, I'd still want to have a flashlight. Shadows can be tricky. But I do prefer a handheld light.
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Old May 6, 2012, 10:33 PM   #79
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Is there absolutely no possible way, none whatsoever, that someone could be in your house for some other reason than to rob or kill you? How about, a neighbor, so disoriented by diabetes, or some other reason, that they unlocked your door with their own key (has happened), and they thought they were in their own home. Stranger things have happened. We all know this is true. Pulling the trigger is always the absolute last possible option, and even then, away from the target with the first shot is a really good idea. The sound alone could scare a genuine crook away, or at least make the disoriented, possibly innocent stranger very quickly make themselves known before it's too late. A neighbor is a terrible thing to waste.
LOL, just because somebody is your neighbor doesn't necessarily mean that they are a friendly or that your first inclination should be to believe that they are there simply because they are confused in some manner.

You know, there have been a lot of criminal acts committed by neighbors robbing, raping, and murdering one another. Maybe it is your poor, confused, diabetic neighbor who is unintentionally in your home, but having a delusion where he feels he needs to harm you or your family. Just because it is medical-based or chemical-induced condition doesn't mean he won't be a determined attacker.
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Old May 16, 2012, 10:41 AM   #80
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There are very valid arguments on both sides, as always when this type of discussion comes up.

My thought is simllicity. I dont keep a hadgun as part, of my hd setup anymore. I did for several years and always had a couple staged in various safe locations. Always had a light spare magazine or speed loader and kept near a phone. To much gear to deal with in the middle of the nihjt, under strsess and fear. The real value of the weapon mounted light is grab and go simplicity. Now my cell phone is always in my pocket or on the charger, my rifle is always close and in conditoon three and Im pretty confadent that I can make the phone call gather the kids and.gf and egress to the safe room with a minimul rjisk of fkrgetting anything. We all think ahead and train to one degree or another and all practice. However the reality is this would be a terrifying situation while your half asleep or in some other vonerable state (my worst fear is being invaded/roken into whike Im in the shower or takeing a sit down head call lol) aveing the light on the weapon eliminates the risk of forgetting it. And if your alone or acting as the only fighting componant of the family, you should not be "clearing" the house. Light up the approach to your position and leave it lighted up,let them knkw where you are. They will leave you alone in most every situation and if they dont you have a clear positional advantage.
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Old May 21, 2012, 05:23 PM   #81
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I personally go the route of a weapon mounted light..Gave it away to a less fortunate friend. TLR-1 miss it but I'll get another one. Probably the one with the strobe effect. Easier to have that one hand free without sacrificing the light.
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Old June 16, 2012, 03:26 PM   #82
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I have always hated light at night or anything that would give away your position even those swinging rocking parachute flares threw light over everything, and if a trip flare went you knew it was the enemy however had a deer set one off one time about gave us a heart attack. Have not seen anyone smoke with their hands cupped or at the bottom of a bunker under a poncho in years and I never smoked at night good way to get your head blown off and guard duty in the bunker or outside the perimeter on ambush or LP is no place to smoke.

That said a light on a gun does free up your off hand while as others have said giving the bad guy a good chance to shoot you in the head or torso, while a light off the gun like I believe the FBI used to train gives you the advantage of holding the light away from your body so if they shoot at the light hopefully you will not take a round to the torso or head although you could probably do that with the gun with the light on it holding it away from your head and body however it would be hard to shoot accurately that way and now if they shoot the light they just shot your strong hand and gun giving you no chance to defend yourself unless you are carrying another gun to use in your weak hand.

I thought at one time it might be neat to develop a periscope with a high intensity light on it or just get some PVC pipe and experiment attaching a light to it and seeing how hard or easy it might be to use the light that way to get the light away from your body.

I also thought at one time that developing a flashlight in the shape of a ball that you could throw in a room and clear it and then retrieve it for the next room might be a good idea but I believe I read some country like Israel had developed that with a grenade inside that they could set off remotely if needed. Did some night shooting with a flashlight around barricades and noticed flashing the light off and on quickly that when you flashed it on and quickly fired and flashed it off at a short distance the flash of the gun going off illuminated the target enough that you could quickly index the sights and do a double tap.

I also agree on not room clearing if you don't have to,,,if you know an intruder is in your home go to your predetermined ambush spot call 911 and let him enter your kill zone not you his. There is an old saying,,,"If you have a choice never go to a Man always let a Man come to you, the First thing the Eye sees is Movement!" A Man waiting in ambush in a good hide will in most cases take out a Man moving and trying to find him.

Lastly remember whether it is you sticking a flashlight or a gun around a door or window or the bad guy,,,with a sheetrock two by four wall,,,it would not be hard to empty a magazine through the wall starting at chest high or waist level and moving down to floor level and then away from the door or window.
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Last edited by PH/CIB; June 16, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
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Old June 16, 2012, 11:08 PM   #83
alt4852
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Quote:
Don't be so naive. If he is inside your house, he is a threat. An inch of dry wall isn't much protection, except maybe against a yorkie.

You might want to recheck your laws. Texas stand your ground law does not say this. That part of the law has been in place long before 2007.

Property isn't worth a human life? Try explaining that to the criminals who are willing to kill you for your property and who are willing to die while trying to take your property.
This mentality is a bit disconcerting to me. Unless you have wronged some people, I think the likelihood of an extremely determined murderer entering your house is very low. Even then, the idea that someone is going to start lighting up your house and shoot through your walls in hopes of hitting you sounds rather far-fetched.

Statistically, most home break-ins are robberies, and thieves hoping to walk off with your TV are not the type that shoots up a room before walking into it. I think the others who have stated that securing the rearmost bedroom and guarding the door while waiting for the police is the most prudent course of action. Anything else simply puts yourself at unnecessary risk. Just because the law might allow something, doesn't mean you should press your luck and hunt down intruders in your house unless they're a direct threat.

As for property not being as valuable as human life, I also agree with jnichols2. Just because there are people out there who would kill you for your valuables, doesn't mean you have to integrate that into your own moral system. It's one thing to fire on someone if they continue to advance in light of a verbal warning of your intentions. It's a whole different story to end someone's life for trying to steal from you. We all have different morals, but I don't think I could live with the idea of taking the life of another human being under those circumstances. Breaking and entering is not in itself a violent crime.
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Old June 17, 2012, 02:53 AM   #84
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This mentality is a bit disconcerting to me. Unless you have wronged some people, I think the likelihood of an extremely determined murderer entering your house is very low.
Who said anything about extremely determined murderers? Looks like you did. There are a tremendous number of these that occur each year that are carried out by family, guests, and/or friends, quite often because conflicts amongst these folks. It is not extremely unlikely for an extremely determined murderer to enter your home. However, having a light on your gun can be quite useful to spot and identify the instruder.

Most murder suicides occur at home, for example.
http://www.inquisitr.com/202679/murd...ps-says-study/

And apparently familicides do as well and they produce at least 2 victims per event.
http://www.unh.edu/sociology/media/p...helton2009.pdf

Furthermore, quite a few burglars shoot homeowners/occupants.

Quote:
Even then, the idea that someone is going to start lighting up your house and shoot through your walls in hopes of hitting you sounds rather far-fetched.
Who said anything about burglars shooting through walls are necessarily meant to hit you? If gunfire occurs in your home and the burglars have spotted you and want to shoot you, just how accurate do you think their shooting will be? What happens to the shots that miss you?

Murders and attemped murders that occur as a result of a burglary gone wrong certainly do occur. For example...
http://www.wbaltv.com/Man-Sentenced-...z/-/index.html
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/...ments-say.html

Quote:
Statistically, most home break-ins are robberies, and thieves hoping to walk off with your TV are not the type that shoots up a room before walking into it.
No, statistically speaking most home break-ins are not robberies. They are burglaries.

Who said anything about intruders shooting up a room before they enter it?
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Old June 17, 2012, 09:46 AM   #85
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
...statistically speaking most home break-ins are not robberies. They are burglaries.
True.

Some definitions might help:
  • Robbery is essential the taking of the property of another by violence or the threat of violence.

  • Burglary is essentially the breaking and entering of a building with the intent of committing a felony therein.

  • The felony most often intended by a burglar is larceny, i. e., the taking and carrying away of the property of another with the intent to permanently deprive him thereof.
Of course, those are only rough definitions, and different States may use different and more detailed definitions. But they will generally track with the foregoing -- which are based on the Common Law definitions of the respective crimes. The rough definitions are useful for highlighting the fundament differences between robbery and burglary.

The common risk to the householder present during a burglary committed for the purpose of larceny is that the burglar, being discovered by the householder, will use violence to either proceed with and carry out the larceny (making it robbery) or will use violence to help facilitate his escape and/or delay reporting of his crime and/or eliminate witnesses.
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Old June 17, 2012, 11:48 AM   #86
g.willikers
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If the situation is indoors, the few folks who have suggested just using the house lights make the most sense.
You will be able to see without giving away your position.
And having the room entirely lit might have more shock value to the intruder than a flashlight would.
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Old June 17, 2012, 12:21 PM   #87
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Not that this would always be best but I heard this suggestion and found it interested...toss some glowsticks out from cover.
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Old June 17, 2012, 07:12 PM   #88
rivertamer
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Great thread..... Lots of useful tips and tactics.
My views on house clearing are based on the type of dwelling you live in......I live in an end of group townhouse.....3 bedrooms and a bath on top floor...... Small hallway up stairs and you can readily view the staircase to the living room from landing...... My practiced plan is gather wife and son in front master bedroom.....wife with shotgun and 17 year old son with cell phone .... Behind bed.
I announce phone call to police and listen for movement.....I am perched safely on landing armed with glock 17..... With Fenix handHeld light... No one should be able to ascend stairs to pose threat to family.

I am quite capable of clearing the lower levels of house.... From base of stairs....I can see and clear living room and most of dining room and kitchen....2 walls could provide cover for bg.....I can maneuver to clear these walls easily.....
The basement area is a straight 35 ft shot.... Veiwable from base of basement stairs....... Closets are few and full.. no room for bg
Best bet is to still remain perched and wait for bg and or police to arrive.... Kinda like hunting deer from a treestand.... Tactical advantage of higher ground.

Sent from my tricked out Synergy Evo!
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Old June 19, 2012, 02:01 AM   #89
alt4852
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Quote:
Who said anything about extremely determined murderers? Looks like you did. There are a tremendous number of these that occur each year that are carried out by family, guests, and/or friends, quite often because conflicts amongst these folks. It is not extremely unlikely for an extremely determined murderer to enter your home. However, having a light on your gun can be quite useful to spot and identify the instruder.
I'm not entirely sure why you seem like you're compelled to get defensive, I didn't mean any offense. I quoted your earlier comment as it was itself a response to someone's opinion. If you put it into context, I think "extremely determined murderers" can be implied from your response.

The guy simply stated that if someone broke into his house, he would garrison his family in the rearmost bedroom of his house and defend the door with his gun and a high powered flashlight rather than try to clear it himself. By telling him that he's naive for thinking that his drywall won't protect him, you're implying that his plan to guard his bedroom is insufficient because the BG's can shoot through walls. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, that's what I was responding to.

Quote:
Most murder suicides occur at home, for example.
http://www.inquisitr.com/202679/murd...ps-says-study/

And apparently familicides do as well and they produce at least 2 victims per event.
http://www.unh.edu/sociology/media/p...helton2009.pdf

Furthermore, quite a few burglars shoot homeowners/occupants.
I'm not sure how familicides are relevant as in that sort of scenario, it still makes more sense to bunker down rather than run around trying to clear the house. If someone you know is trying to kill you.

So going back to the original comment, why is it a better idea to clear a house rather than stay put and defend one point of entry with your family behind you? The gentleman said that the intruder is not a threat until he tries to enter the bedroom. I agree, if they're stealing your valuables downstairs, they are not an immediate threat to you or your family. After you've called the police, there's no reason for you to venture out to clear your house because the intruders are not a threat to your life until they try to enter the room you're defending.

Quote:
Who said anything about burglars shooting through walls are necessarily meant to hit you? If gunfire occurs in your home and the burglars have spotted you and want to shoot you, just how accurate do you think their shooting will be? What happens to the shots that miss you?
Again, I'm not sure how your house is laid out, but for most homes, an individual will not be able to see you inside a closed bedroom unless they open the door. Without opening the door from the hall, they're blindly shooting through walls. That makes no sense. This is where my "extremely determined murderers" comment came in. Unless there are intruders hell-bent on murdering you, they wouldn't blindly shoot through walls. It's not exactly a smart thing to do for a burglar.

Quote:
Murders and attemped murders that occur as a result of a burglary gone wrong certainly do occur. For example...
http://www.wbaltv.com/Man-Sentenced-...z/-/index.html
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/...ments-say.html
No doubt, and if they try to access your bedroom, the person you responded to would have taken further action as the conditions he described would have changed. I still don't see how his comment was naive.

Quote:
No, statistically speaking most home break-ins are not robberies. They are burglaries.
My mistake, I wasn't aware of the proper semantics.

Quote:
Who said anything about intruders shooting up a room before they enter it?
You implied it. Read post #63, and post #69 (your response).

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't find any fault in what jnichols2 stated. It's a bit off-putting for you to act as though I'm throwing up non sequitur strawman arguments, but I think anybody reading what you wrote could have come to that conclusion. If that wasn't your intent, I apologize, as it wasn't clear to me.
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Old June 19, 2012, 04:34 PM   #90
raimius
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RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

In the dark, that generally means shining a light on it.
Now, we have some options for this. We can use house lights, lights we toss on the ground, handheld lights, or weapon-mounted lights.

For me, I have a weapon light on my primary HD firearm. I greatly value the benefit of either having a free hand or using a two handed stance (I pull a lot higher percentage of shots when one-handed and trying to go fast). Since the lights are in the 100+ lumen range, I can light up a room from the high-ready, or temporarily blind someone with direct light. And, if I decide to temporarily blind someone, I have them covered at the same time.

Still, as someone who has done Force-on-Force and shoot-house work, I know that single-man clearing is DANGEROUS. I won't do it unless the situation places an innocent person in extreme danger. Sure, 1-man clearing can be done, and I have practiced it some, but it is VERY risky even when compared to 2-4 man team clearing.

Each has its pros and cons:
House lights:
Pro:
lights up a whole room
provides for easy ID
source of light does not provide information to BG
Con:
generally activated from non-mobile switches
lights up everyone in the room, including you
not as disorienting as a modern tactical light

Tossed lights:
Pro:
lights up selected area only
source of light provides only limited info to BG
Cons:
you'll want multiple ones to clear multiple rooms
limited by where you place them
easily defeated by objects creating shadows
possibly noisy

Handheld lights
Pro:
lights up selected area only
source of light can be displaced from you centerline
can be used as an impact weaponts:modern tactical lights are blindingly bright at night
Cons:
Most people aren't as accurate when firing one handed
Takes up off hand (harder to open doors, call police, etc)
Provides BG your location within about 1 meter

Weapon mounted light:
Pros:
Illuminates selected area only
Source of light lined up with muzzle (you don't have to aim the light and the firearm separately)
Allows 1 handed operation of firearm and light (frees off hand)
Allows 2 handed operation of firearm (more accurate for most people)
modern tactical lights are blindingly bright at night
Cons:
must aim light at other surface if you don't want to muzzle something
generally close to your centerline
not usable as a secondary impact weapon
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Old June 20, 2012, 08:25 PM   #91
Jammer Six
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I've never understood why this topic is so complicated.

I teach simplicity.

I teach turning on the lights.
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Old June 21, 2012, 08:12 AM   #92
skoro
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Flashlights and Handguns for Home Defense

I keep my flashlight separate. As others have already mentioned, having the light on the weapon gives the intruder a good aiming point.
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Old June 21, 2012, 10:46 PM   #93
ScottieG59
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Maybe everyone else has a large home in which you can rally the family to a defendable place. My doors in the front and the back of the house are very close to the hallway where our bedrooms are. I would have no time to rally or collect the kids during a break-in. At least, collecting all in a single room would be unlikely. I would have to defend the hallway leading to the bedrooms.

Realistically, the odds of a home invasion is very low and even lower when drugs are not involved. Still, a couple months ago, a neighbor of mine was shot to death by a home invader. So, the odds are low, but above zero.

I live in a rural area, though houses are visible to many neighbors. People have dogs that often remain outside at night and when one dog sounds off, the rest of the dogs in the area join them. Also, most people out here are armed.

At nighttime, I keep my Glock 20, a powerful flashlight with multiple settings, a charging mobile phone, a folding knife and electronic hearing protection the enhances non-gun sounds. When I am awake, I carry a Glock 27, flashlight, folding knife, and mobile phone.
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