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Old May 16, 2012, 08:53 AM   #26
243winxb
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Custom Lee Collet Neck Sizing Dies

Custom Collet Necksizing Dies
Posted by Nancy @ Lee Precision on 18 October 2011 02:19 PM . . .

Moderator Edit: Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials. You need express permission. Using a link, as I did, is OK, as that puts eye's on the originator's advertising. Sorry, i keep forgetting the copyright thing. Thank you for correcting the post.

Last edited by 243winxb; May 16, 2012 at 05:23 PM.
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Old May 16, 2012, 11:51 AM   #27
splatman
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Doing some research on the Redding Type S FULL bushing die. Does the
decapping pin on this die have anything to do with the neck sizing process?


The Redding web site says the following:


"A decapping pin retainer is also supplied with most Type S - Bushing Dies except 17 and 20 Cal. This enables neck sizing without the use of the size button for those who sort and/or turn case necks for uniformity."

"Note: By removing the bushing and all internal parts, the Type-S full bushing die may also be used as a body die."


These two statements imply that the decapping assembly up sizes the internal neck diameter after the neck bushing down sizes the neck; is that
correct? If not I must be completely missing the picture here. Since the
fired case neck is always in need of down sizing; which can be precisely controlled by inserting the proper bushing; why would you ever need to
use a decapping pin which does anything except to knock out the primer?
In other words why would a decapping pin be used to modify the neck diameter after the bushing has been used to set the proper neck tension?

I believe that is why you recommended getting an undersized decapping pin
so as not too upset the neck size after running the case up into the bushing.
Is that correct? If so how come this die was designed with a decapping
assembly which affects the neck diameter? That does not make any sense to me. Is this a scheme by Redding to make you spend more money on a smaller decapping pin?

Redding says the following:

"The decapping rod is supplied with a standard size button. This is especially useful for reloaders who are using commercial brass as is."
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Old May 16, 2012, 12:03 PM   #28
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Does the decapping pin in the Redding Type S FULL bushing die have anything to do with sizing the neck? If so why? It looks like the neck sizing should be
precisely controlled by running the neck up into the proper bushing.
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Old May 16, 2012, 12:46 PM   #29
243winxb
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The Redding Type S FULL length sizing bushing die can be used with or without the expander & still decap. The bushing can be adjusted to size the full length of the neck or only part of the neck, its adjustable.

Last edited by 243winxb; May 16, 2012 at 12:49 PM. Reason: add photo
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Old May 16, 2012, 03:12 PM   #30
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I talked with a technician from Redding today. He said if you really want to control the neck tension you have to remove the expander and you should
neck turn the brass before using the die. He did emphasize turning the necks.

The quotes I posted above came from http://www.redding-reloading.com.
Also have noted the copyright policy thanks!
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Old May 17, 2012, 02:50 PM   #31
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one or two or even three discrete sentences don't normally matter. That's expected to fall under the fair use principle, as long as the source is credited. It's when you get multiple paragraphs, whole articles, illustrations and whatnot that it becomes an issue and you need to get permission from the source.
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Old May 19, 2012, 09:12 AM   #32
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OK Thanks. 243WinXb Thanks for the photo and explanation! I ordered a L.E. Wilson head space gauge for the 338 Lapua. Since my RCBS die is in my opinion down sizing the neck too much and scarring it, and given the amount of force it
takes to pull the expander ball through even with lubing the inside of the neck, a friend of mine said that I may be pulling the case shoulder out of whack, so if
this is happening I hope the head space gauge may confirm this theory. I am ultimately trying to figure out why my Savage 110 BA wont group better that
1.25 MOA AT 100 YDS. I have tried a bunch of loading combinations using Retumbo (88 - 92 grains), H4831SC, and IMR 4350. I am using a 250 grain scenar bullet and off the rifling from .015 - 0.25 inches. Using Federal 215 primer. Nothing seems to work well and frustration level is high working with this
particular gun. I called Savage and they say test fire their guns for accuracy using Black Hills ammunition which I cannot find here anywhere.
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:27 AM   #33
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Splatman,

I agree with you on the die. You want to get that sorted out. The alternatives already discussed would serve you better.

In the Precision Shooting Reloading guide, one of the authors tells how, in loading for his 220 Swift one day he accidentally turned the micrometer adjustment on his seating die the wrong way when changing bullets and wound up seating them 0.050" off the lands instead of 0.020" off, as he normally used. He considered pulling the bullets, but decided to fire them as practice rounds instead. To his amazement, the gun, which had never before been able to put 5 shots into less than 3/8", gave him two 1/4" groups and two bugholes in the ones (0.100"-0.199") with those 20 "practice" rounds.

The lesson is that seating depth off the lands is a tuning factor and there is no magic "right" number. You have to find it for your bullet choice in your chamber. Indeed, Berger has found for it's VLD's, that as much as 0.150" off the lands can be best. Read the first post, here.

If you haven't read it yet, look at Dan Newberry's site for a systematic approach to load development.


Edit:

I just tried the stability calculator at the JBM Ballistics site and found most of the .338 bullets sold by Lapua, Sierra, and Hornady in your weight range and a little higher are running stability factors of up around 2.5 in your 9" twist bore. That's a bit fast. It's not that it can't shoot (a lot of service rifles are shooting in that range), but it's not best for Benchrest accuracy. 1.4 to 1.7 are usually recommended for peak accuracy. Also, I think a bullet that diameter at maximum velocities could experience core stripping in a 9" twist barrel, which could limit accuracy. I would try the Berger 300 grain hybrid tactical bullet or maybe even the Barnes Lapua Tipped Triple-Shock™ X Boattail which is a 265 grain bullet. Both are long and run a stability factor of nearer to 2. The heavier Berger should fly enough slower to reduce the chance of core stripping and the Barnes is a solid, so it has no core to strip.
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Last edited by Unclenick; May 19, 2012 at 11:01 AM.
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Old May 19, 2012, 01:42 PM   #34
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OK just ran out and bought some Berger 300 grain hybrid tactical bullets. I want to wait until I get my headspace gauge before I do anymore reloading. The post by Berger was very interesting. Will seriously consider the Redding Type S dye in the future. Thanks for your input!
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Old June 5, 2012, 08:43 PM   #35
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OK so I discovered that I could not load these bullets within 0.020" off the
lands because they would not fit in the magazine. I used the Dan Newberry load
development strategy see optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/. Using Retumbo with 300 grain berger hybrid OTM Tactical.

Powder charges tested (89 grs 2704 fps), (89.7 grs, 2737 fps), (90.4 grs 2783 fps), (91.1 grs, 2783 fps), (91.8 grs, 2754 fps), (92.5 grs, 2812 fps), (93.2 grs, 2836 fps), and (94 grs, 2873 fps). Listed here is the top velocity, 3 rounds per
tested charge. COAL was 3.735. Note that above data shows that no increase
in velocity was attained with increase in powder charge. This might be due to
errors in the chronograph (using the Prochronograph). Best group was 1 inch
at 100 yards with 91.8 grains. Still not acceptable since I am capable of shooting 0.5 inch MOA. I have been experimenting with Retumbo for quite
awhile. Should I switch to another powder? Did notice that the barrel was
quite warm, how much will this affect accuracy? Cannot figure this gun out,
my Savage 308 is a Tack driver. Don't know where to go from here. I think
I should be able to get better accuracy out of this gun but not sure now.
Any suggestions?
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Old June 7, 2012, 07:27 AM   #36
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vertical lines

I had these lines on my .204 cases for a spell, the dies were reddings, what i found was that the dies were dirty, once i cleaned them with some brake clean, then started to use "very minimal" lube on the necks these lines went away in future resizings. I now use reddings dry case lube on all my necks. Works very well.
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Old June 7, 2012, 01:16 PM   #37
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Splatman,

Your velocity leveling then dropping in that 90.4 to 91.8 is a classic pressure sign. I know your load does not exceed Hodgdon's recommendations for Retumbo, but your 91.8 grain load does does produce more velocity than their 24" test barrel would get with it by just over 100 fps, even allowing for your two additional inches of barrel. That suggests your pressure are higher than theirs for the same amount of powder. Not at proof load levels, but QuickLOAD estimates about 69,000 psi. That could happen if your case water capacity is enough smaller than that of the Winchester brass they use.

The other possibility is your chronograph is reading high. If so and if you are not at excessive pressure and velocity, then that range of flattening and decreasing velocity can be a sign of uneven bolt lug contact, and you may need your lugs lapped. What happens is the pressure gets to the point it stretches metal enough to push the lug making poor contact back, and that grows the case volume enough to slow or reverse the rise of pressure. When it finally is bending back enough to make proper contact, then the stretching stops and the velocity with additional powder starts going up again. Uneven bolt lug contact could also be an explanation for your difficulty in getting smaller groups, especially if they tend to string horizontally.
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Old June 8, 2012, 08:20 PM   #38
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I have been cleaning the dies out with Birchwood Casey gun scrubber seems to work OK.

Yes it is logical to conclude that the pressures I'm at are higher given
the higher velocity and larger barrel volume than there test gun. The higher
twist rate would also contribute to an increase in pressure. Not sure but I
think the Winchester brass is a bit larger (in volume) than the Lapua brass.
Slight vertical stringing... horizontal stringing is the problem. Will do some
more shooting and will focus within a delta (+- 0.3 grs) of the 91.8 charge.
I will also move out to 300 yds and see if I can attain a better MOA than
shooting at 100 yds. I have heard that in some cases that a gun will shoot
sub MOA at 300 yds but not at 100 yds. Has anyone experiences this
phenomenon ?
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Old June 9, 2012, 11:51 AM   #39
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Thats called letting the bullet go to sleep. Whether it affects you or not depends on how perfectly straight the bullets stay when exiting your muzzle. If perfect, you won't see that happen and they'll be pretty equally good over a number of distances. But if something is making them yaw excessively near the muzzle, then you will see the improvement. It typically takes about 200 yards for the yaw to reduce to 80% of its initial value, so it is most common for the difference to be observed between 100 and 200 yards. However, there are some bullets that take longer. I recall Walt Berger being quoted as saying some of the short bearing surface Palma bullets could take 500 yards to hit their best stride.

In a gun whose bolt lugs lie in the horizontal plane with the action closed, the bolt lugs making uneven contact with the receiver lugs introduces a recoil moment around a vertical axis. That does specifically cause horizontal stringing. Coupled with your data showing the leveling and drop in velocity, known to occur when uneven bolt lugs are forced into solid contact under high enough pressure, and the fact your best group requires that kind of pressure, to my mind you now have three clues the bolt lugs need to be lapped. This isn't uncommon in production guns of any make. Indeed, Steyr developed their special lug super precision grinding system just to address this problem.

In your shoes, my next step would be to lap the bolt lugs then see if lower pressure test loads didn't start coming in better. QuickLOAD thinks, based on Chris Long's OBT theory, that 88.3 grains of Retumbo should be another sweet spot, but if the lugs are making uneven contact you'd still see horizontal stringing with it.

By the way, you can color the rear faces of your bolt lugs with magic marker and open and close the action a couple of times to see if they discolor unevenly.
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Old June 10, 2012, 07:40 PM   #40
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Looks to me like the lugs are locked in the vertical plane. I covered the rear
of each lug with magic marker like you suggested and then worked the bolt
several times and inspected the lugs. One lug had 100% contact and no marker
was left on the lug. The other lug had 99% coverage and some marker was left
on the outside edge of the lug. See picture below.

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\Paul\My Documents\My Pictures\cell phone pics\lug contact.lpg[/IMG]


After going back and looking at all of my old targets I would say there is vertical and horizontal stringing for the most part. Only on some loads did
I get just horizontal stringing. Could the muzzle break gases affect the bullet
at the muzzle?
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Old June 10, 2012, 07:47 PM   #41
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Sorry tried to upload jpeg file but was a little to large.
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Old June 11, 2012, 11:49 AM   #42
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Try going to an image host site. Paste in the link it gives you after uploading your image. This one works for me.

You're correct that they lock up vertical. I've been playing with too many Garands lately. Nonetheless, it is possible for them to rock in the horizontal plane. Sounds like turning the bolt scrapes the ink off, so try re-inking and pushing forward on the bolt as hard as you can while you close it. Do the same removing it and see if the markings change. If you lose scraping when you do that, after closing, pull back on the bolt and wiggle the handle up and down a little, then push it forward to unlock it and remove it. You may get a better view of what's happening.

If the contact still looks that even (67% is enough) then something else is stretching to give you the velocity flat spot, and something else is introducing the horizontal moment.
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