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View Poll Results: Do you think this video should be promoted to new shooters?
Yes 11 26.83%
No 25 60.98%
Maybe 5 12.20%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 4, 2012, 02:33 PM   #26
TailGator
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The information regarding a proper fit of a gun to the hand was decent, and supported by good examples, but perhaps not emphasized as much as it should have been given that it was the subject of the video. The gun handling problems that are discussed above, and the ballistics discussion (saying that there is no practical difference between .380, 9 mm, and .38 special) cause me to vote no fairly emphatically. You just can't give such erroneous information and bad examples to beginners.
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Old June 4, 2012, 10:56 PM   #27
johnwilliamson062
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I might be on a bit of a crusade about this. And here is why:

From a new shooter:
Quote:
As a relatively new shooter (9mths, now), I can say this info would have been useful to me. If nothing else it would have put some facts in simple terms, without lots of jargon that I had not yet learnt.
From a very experienced instructor:
Quote:
In my view as an instructor, that is not sufficient and renders the video completely useless for teaching beginners. When beginners see things like that, they don't know any better and will believe it is acceptable behavior.

SO, what this video is is an informational video, I won't call it training anymore, distributed by an AUTHORITY figure in a 2A rights group to a large number of very inexperienced shooters that some experienced instructors I would easily refer to as experts in the field, say teaches a lot of bad habits(and I agree). Along with incorrect information. My original response to them was the video needed to be revised. The process of multiple versions could be as informative for new shooters as the final product. I have no expectation of anyone getting all that info right without some preparation, but further frustrating is the response of those involved to the criticism. Both continue to stand by EVERYTHING in the video. From the gun handling to the false information.

Quote:
Come on down, wear a thick coat, sign a waiver and let me shoot you with a 380
Quote:
Lets remember the audience for the video, and the folks i deal with every day who know next to nothing about what gun they need except for what some friend/relative told them they must have.
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The phrase may not have been ideal but the Double Action is heavy because there is no hammer to pull back etc.... remember the audience matters again.
I don't know how that makes anything in the video acceptable.
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Ok John. Please feel free to make a video
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I also do not know what your background is. Jonathan on the other hand is an instructor with years of experience under his belt. He also constantly seeks to improve/correct his knowledge. He is one of the few people I can rely on only allowing truth and factual information to come out when he opens his mouth. He earned that respect from me because he backs his claims up.
Quote:
As I said, the phrasing may not have been perfect but fact is a DA only gun (the one i was showing her, so therefore the only one i was talking about at the time) is heavy because you cannot use it in SA mode.
Then some discrediting the people in this thread as I gave them a link so they could see what knowledgeable respected instructors had to say(Frank Ettin and Jim Page). The shop owner claims to have already seen it as he is a member here.

And then the scariest part:
Quote:
In subsequent videos, we will discuss how to factor concealed carry practicality and recoil management into the equation.
They are making more and they think this is fine how it is.

Docpadds, are you the shop owner?

I really would like a better video to link to if anyone has one. Despite the antagonizing suggestion that I produce my own version, I realize I am not qualified to do so. For starters i know NOTHING about fit beyond shoot 400 rounds through a gun in one range session and you will know if it fits or not.
I linked to coneredcat. I wish it wasn't so pink like a lady smith. Video really might be a worth while update for the site. Most in my generation won't read through pages of information. I personally hate wading through youtube video, but most my age and younger seem to love them.

So yes, I am on a bit of a crusade about what I think is some really bad information being given out by an authority figure in a 2A organization to a bunch of people who won't know they need to find someone with more knowledge to get more detailed/clearer/correct explanations, b/c they assume it to be correct due to the source.
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Last edited by johnwilliamson062; June 4, 2012 at 11:21 PM.
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Old June 5, 2012, 12:43 AM   #28
docpadds
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So even though I have said there could be improvements, there are better ways to say something, that its not a full on training video and was a spur of the moment expedited video made at the shop by a third party etc..... I don't believe I have been completely black and white on this because i am not perfect and for sure not a TV star or somebody used to the camera and have never said so.

Yes I am the store owner, its in my sig line

Frankly I am doing my best to follow this up and answer to it, am not afraid of criticism, however being a small business owner is taking priority.
Oh well, keep going and posting it all over, I will try and be available to answer folks as i can.
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Old June 5, 2012, 01:05 AM   #29
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docpadds
So even though I have said there could be improvements, there are better ways to say something, that its not a full on training video and was a spur of the moment expedited video made at the shop by a third party etc..... I don't believe I have been completely black and white on this ...
I understand the limitation, but I have to say that whether or not you would call it a training video, as long as it's intended to provide guidance to novices, one thing is "black and white": best safety practices must be followed.

Best safety practices include personally visually verifying the condition of the gun by checking the magazine well and opening the slide to check the chamber (or opening the cylinder on a revolver) every time you take the gun in your hand and strict muzzle discipline. If you want to know my qualifications for that opinion, please check my profile.

As I mentioned earlier, when beginners see improper gun handling, they don't know any better and will believe it is acceptable behavior. But it is not.

I know from experience how difficult it can be to start out novices on the right foot. It's simply that guns are foreign objects to them, and they tend to be very awkward with them at the beginning. And they have too much to think about.

But I believe that the first order of business teaching beginners must be inculcating proper safety practices. These practices are not negotiable. And laying a good foundation requires constant reinforcement.

Part of that comes from watching experienced instructors always modeling correct practices -- reinforcing that safety is not just for beginners but is also a sign of an experience and accomplished shooter. We show that we take it seriously, so the students are more inclined to also take it seriously.

Then there's guiding and correcting students in their gun handling. There is so much new on their minds, that we need to appropriately and consistently remind them. That's how good habits get started.

I teach monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes with a group of other NRA certified instructors. We limit class size to 12 students, and usually have five to seven instructors at the class. So students get a lot of individual attention and have a lot of opportunity to handle guns under direct supervision. We strictly model best safety practices in our gun handling, and we guide the students to do the same.

Probably 85% to 90% of students had never fired a gun before the class. Some 30% + are women.

The idea of a video is good. It doesn't have to be a professionally done extravaganza with first class production values. There's nothing wrong with it being a little rough or even amateurish. But to have value, the gun handling must be correct.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; June 5, 2012 at 01:47 PM. Reason: correct typo
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Old June 5, 2012, 07:44 PM   #30
johnwilliamson062
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so the final response was to ban me from the page.

Good luck to the new shooters. Nothing I can say/do about it now, so I am off the hook.

Quote:
however, being a small business owner is taking priority.
I told Frank in a discussion of this by PM I felt a little bad about you getting mixed into this. I am sure your decision to become involved went something like this:
"You want to come by and have a new shooter try out a few guns? You want to videotape it? Sure, anything I can do to help out." I know you have been generous with your support in the past. Neither you nor Jessica look all that comfortable on video, so I am sure neither of you were too excited about the idea in the first place. If you aren't comfortable in such a situation it is going to affect what you say and how you say it. If you take half the time with your average customer as you did with "Jessica" you are the best shop in Columbus and in the running for the state as far as customer service. I see firearms handling mistakes like that by staff in EVERY gun shop I have ever been in. I have received much worse information from your competitors. I have been outright ignored in several of their shops when there were idle employees. If I had been in a shop and seen this I would not have thought twice about it, but on a video through an organizational distribution channel it won't work. This isn't the same as an individual posting it on their own page. The simple fact is that almost no single person, no matter how much of an expert can make a video like this that isn't riddled with mistakes, especially in a single take. When you see good professional videos I am sure they use three or four very experienced instructors who look over each others segments and critique it, then re-shoot it over and over until they are happy with it.
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Last edited by johnwilliamson062; June 5, 2012 at 07:55 PM.
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Old June 5, 2012, 08:41 PM   #31
docpadds
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Sorry to hear that.

You're welcome in the shop anytime, and yes if the situation demands we will spend that time with the customer. Indeed this has proved to be the best way we have garnered loyal good customers, bit it does cut into my available downtime for forums etc.

Come on in sometime, we are easy to find.
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Old June 5, 2012, 10:38 PM   #32
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As far as the interaction goes, besides being a "training" video, i see nothing out of the ordinary for gun store interactions. Questions were asked, answered, etc., and I can see where gun sales are concerned, it is a gun, but in a sales shop it is primarily a sale. Shops are typically very lenient as far as gun handling goes, I browse all the time for entertainment, and they typically check the gun as they first take it out of the display, and then you damn near have to point it in their face before they will say anything about safety, because the sale is the primary objective.

As far as safety goes, if I am in a store, I keep an eye out for guns in my direction, and will correct anyone if I am swept, and I personally keep safety practices in mind. Double at a range.
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Old June 6, 2012, 10:31 PM   #33
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Just to add to my previous post, I don't have any criticism of anyone in the video. This isn't a training tape and the people in it did not intend that it be so.

There are some issues with gun handling, but stuff happens, I'm sure the people involved wouldn't be pointing guns at each other if they had the time to work things out. Stuff happens to even the best folks.

My issue with the tape is using it as a training video, as a stand alone piece.
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Old June 7, 2012, 08:42 PM   #34
johnwilliamson062
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When you post anything on youtube it is going out to the general public. Yes, there are some absolutely horrible videos on youtube that show the worst of not only the firearms community, but also every other community in the modern world. It doesn't change the fact that you are still sending information out to the globe.

I am rethinking making the video. I have a great resource of experts here. I could do it in multiple sessions, first post it here and have you people tear it apart, then re-shoot it. Over and over again until it was right. It could turn out to be quite a lot of knowledge. I have to see about how up to date my video editing is. I think it is about a decade behind the times.
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Old June 9, 2012, 12:34 AM   #35
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I have been informed the link was removed.
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Old June 10, 2012, 02:25 PM   #36
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I would certainly not call this a training video due to mistakes that have already been discussed. I would however, call it valuable for the simple fact that it presents current guns with close-ups of a female hand holding it. What I would add to that would be naming the gun's maker and model, and adding several more. If women saw this, they would already have an inkling of what they wanted to try out at their own local rental/range, instead of being bombarded with choices at a busy counter where you sometimes feel you're being pressured.
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